To refuse to give my students feedback

[WiseBlankie]

Hi all!

I'm a university teacher. Every year I teach the same course in the second semester. I'll keep it vague, but basically the students are asked to design a rudimentary study, run it and write up the results. The official deadline for their report is in June. If they miss that deadline (or fail), they have three additional chances to hand it in during the following academic year (in September, November and January).

Anyway, the final meetings of this course take the form of tutorials: the students bring their designs-in-progress to class, we discuss them and I give feedback. The students who are diligent about this usually pass without issue. Unfortunately, many students skip these sessions or show up without having done any work, usually because they've already decided to opt for one of the later deadlines and postpone the whole assignment. What happens is that I then get lots of emails around this time of year to ask if I can give them feedback on their designs. Reading their work and responding to these emails takes up a lot of time, whereas during the tutorials I often sit there twiddling my thumbs because only a handful students bother to show up, and there is no work to discuss.

Anyway, I have started replying that if they had wanted feedback on their designs, they should have showed up for tutorials and done their homework, and that they're always welcome to retake the course.

My colleague thinks I am too harsh and that students are postponing assignments because they're overwhelmed. I do get this, and am willing to make exceptions for students who have had to deal with illness or personal problems, but right now I think there's this general attitude that only their own schedule matters. I am busy too, and teaching other courses at the moment. AIBU?

You need to write it in the course module information and tell them there is only a feedback session before the exam, not before the resits.

oh you idealistic innocent! You assume students read the module documents or their emails or listen to what you tell them in lectures or individual tutorials.

Won’t help now, but in future be VERY clear at the start on when they can get feedback and that unless exceptional circumstances are agreed there will be no other opportunity and emails asking will not be responded to.

Yanbu. You should make it clear at the start of the year that feedback will only be available for those students who submit their assessment for the first deadline, unless there are extenuating circumstances that they can evidence.

Well they should be reading it! If they aren’t then that’s on them. These are grown adults in tertiary education, not ten year olds! They can expect to be spoonfed for the rest of their lives 🙄

But that's exactly what some can and do expect, Emmz1510, and after years of being babied at school you'll hear them scream soon enough if thwarted in any way

Unfortunately this is where encouraging Uni attendance even for the patently unsuited has brought us, so now injecting realty is left up to employers ... and then some wonder why degrees from certain Unis are often regarded as no degree at all

If there are extensions to submit later then the first deadline does not matter so much. Either there is one deadline and one tutorial or you allow a few deadlines and then do a corresponding numbers of tutorials. So the first deadline does not matter so much as there are two. And I am speaking as a straight A, phd graduate who works in consultancy, so yes I totally know what a deadline yes and by putting several submissions student are not late if they miss the first.

The three extra dates are not deadlines for extensions, they're re-takes. The problem with this module is that (a) it's compulsory but (b) the grade is not taken into account in calculating the final degree classification. This gives students no incentive whatsoever to submit on time, other than not wanting to mess up the following year's work. They are not penalised for not passing the assignment at the normal time. Stupid system. (Not OP's fault, of course.)

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g And lessens the quality of the degree.

I think the main thing is not to imply anything, but to openly state it and give it written down too. That's fairer.

Once again we are allowing the ‘entitlement’ of some so called adults to do as they please to their own timetable.
Why should we pander to them because they decided that they would complete the work in their own timescale? I have worked in education for a number of years in a vary of sectors including universities and I can honestly say that before I retired in 2022 I noticed a huge surge in the entitlement of the younger learners who thought that the staff were there to serve their needs and had to meet them regardless of anyone else

I’m a university lecturer and feel frustrated at very similar situations BUT I was also a student who put off work all the time due to issues at home which no one knew about and I was SO greatful to a tutor who put himself out for me when I asked. He met me, on my own, and went through the assignment again with me. I passed the module.
I try to remember this in moments of frustration. As much as it’s easy to assume it, even if they haven’t told us or the uni of personal issues or health issues, few of them actually don’t have a whole lot of things going on.
Yes they have to do the work and we aren’t there to just given the degree but also, surely we want to help them to pass? Yes it means more work for us at times and it’s reasonable to set boundaries on this (for example ONE tutorial session before each deadline) but I always try to support them whenever they are able to do the work

I don’t recall this level of support for my DD at uni. Maybe this shows the difference between those that should be doing degrees and those who maybe should not? Why should they all pass if they aren’t good enough?

Maybe your daughter didn’t need that level of support, or she didn’t tell you what she had. You’d be very surprised at what students keep from their parents.

Sometimes people need adjustments because they have a disability or have experienced something terrible, they shouldn’t be disadvantaged by that and that doesn’t mean they don’t deserve to be at University or pass assessments.

The problem is that some people take the piss. That shouldn’t disadvantage students who need the flexibility.

OP needs to set clear boundaries with the students she has but she needs to make sure that these are compliant with university regulations or she will end up with a load of complaints and have to do it anyway.

Yes it does indeed show the difference, TizerorFizz, but unfortunately this is where encouraging most to go to Uni has brought us

The problem is that some people take the piss. That shouldn’t disadvantage students who need the flexibility

Edited to add that I agree with this also, @friendconcern, but the difficulty is that rightly offering flexibility where appropriate will always attract the "me too" contingent, and many are the very last to accept the word no

Absolutely agree.
They then expect this in the workplace.
It's a disaster

@Puzzledandpissedoff ”Most” don’t go to uni. 37% of school leavers go. Others get degrees later in life of course but part time degrees have fallen off a cliff. The workforce as a whole has around 50% degree holders but some of these are immigrants and some are older. I think 37.% is too high. I think 33% is very high but we need to have a middle way for young people to build up to a degree if they aren’t ready at 18. Or professional qualifications without a degree. We lean too heavily on degrees that employers don’t need or value.

Unpopular probably but these students are getting thousands of pounds into debt for their education and it’s your job to educate. They aren’t uber-organised, disciplined adults with common sense and organisational skills they’re kids living away from home for the first time, living communally, without structure or rules. They’re not thinking that far ahead and probably need coaxing and reminding that the sessions are there and the benefits of attending them. Frankly one of my sons subjects he had 7 tutors in 3 years and frequently the lectures were cancelled as there was no tutor. He’s paying back £35,000 for that privilege

Kids of 18 or 19 need their hands held, they need guiding. You might not agree but that’s as much a part of your job as teaching the subject

With anything - not just this - I think having a series of deadlines and then punishing someone for not meeting the right one is bullshit.

A deadline is a deadline. Set a single date by which the thing must be done. If it is done by then, great. If not, then it is not done.

If there are four deadlines then, in reality there is just one deadline: the final one. Anyone meeting that deadline has met the brief.

I think you suck it up this time but make it absolutely explicit that you will not provide individual feedback. I would do a June and November deadline and do one tutorial before June and one before November but make it explicit in writing on the brief and remind them verbally that there will be no more.

People are not getting it.

There is one deadline at the end of the teaching period. There are then X3 reassessment opportunities because students have either failed or failed to submit in the first instance.

Lecturers cannot operate like this with never ending feedback opportunities for both the modules they are currently teaching plus the ones they were teaching last year. We don't get workload allocation to "mop up" those who didn't submit with further feedback plus it is unfair on those who do submit on time.

@ParanormalNorman nobody is punishing anyone. Those students have made an informed choice to not submit when they were supposed to and they're being given several opportunities to 'retrieve the fail'.

The problem here is this is happening in large numbers so it is untenable to offer further feedback. It needs flagging to senior management and the policy needs reviewing.

No. You've misunderstood. It's not a series of deadlines. It's one deadline. The first date. But the students know that they can miss it and be allowed to resit for a capped mark, so that's what they're doing.

This is a very badly designed course if it has four opportunities for submission (or rather one submission and three retakes/other opportunities) and has no penalty (i.e. doesn't count towards degree classification) if they don't submit at the first one.

I'd tackle that with the powers that be, and in the meantime, tell the students to turn up in your office hours with a printout (or send online and do online) during that time to discuss verbally. I allow 10 min each for this, if the students have missed the opportunity for feedback say in class or need extra support prior to a deadline. Then it's in the same hour as all your other interactions. We have to offer two hours of office hour time in a week, at different times (so not two hours consecutively).

I find this drastically contains the amount I have to do. I only offer written feedback in line with the assessment outlined in the course module, and that's once, for a specific date. Otherwise, anyone is free to benefit from my wisdom if they make an appointment in office hours!

@Deekay64 My DDs didn’t need their hands held at uni. They worked out what they needed to do and got on with it. It’s what the majority of degree students should be able to do. They didn’t have “teachers” they had lecturers and understood the difference. If DC are not ready for uni, they really should not go. Take another route. Stay at home. Let parents hand hold. All this attention diminishes the degrees others get who are self sufficient and able to work without hand holding. Employers really want the latter.

Kids of 18 or 19 need their hands held, they need guiding. You might not agree but that’s as much a part of your job as teaching the subject.

It really, really isn't. And I'm a soft, cuddly academic willing to do far more hand holding than most.

What on earth has gone wrong with the way we bring our children up if this is how people think about 18/19 year olds now? I was expected to organise myself and remember deadlines when I was at school, never mind university. My parents were not involved in any way. My teachers rightly believed their job was done when they had provided the teaching, set the assignment and communicated the deadline. After that it was all down to me. This, and the fact that I had always been expected to help out at home and had had a Saturday/holiday job while studying, made the transition to university far easier than it sounds like it is for some school leavers now, chucked in the deep end in spite of never having been taught to swim. If anybody had told any of my university lecturers that they should be holding our hands they'd have laughed, and so would we.