To refuse to give my students feedback

[WiseBlankie]

Hi all!

I'm a university teacher. Every year I teach the same course in the second semester. I'll keep it vague, but basically the students are asked to design a rudimentary study, run it and write up the results. The official deadline for their report is in June. If they miss that deadline (or fail), they have three additional chances to hand it in during the following academic year (in September, November and January).

Anyway, the final meetings of this course take the form of tutorials: the students bring their designs-in-progress to class, we discuss them and I give feedback. The students who are diligent about this usually pass without issue. Unfortunately, many students skip these sessions or show up without having done any work, usually because they've already decided to opt for one of the later deadlines and postpone the whole assignment. What happens is that I then get lots of emails around this time of year to ask if I can give them feedback on their designs. Reading their work and responding to these emails takes up a lot of time, whereas during the tutorials I often sit there twiddling my thumbs because only a handful students bother to show up, and there is no work to discuss.

Anyway, I have started replying that if they had wanted feedback on their designs, they should have showed up for tutorials and done their homework, and that they're always welcome to retake the course.

My colleague thinks I am too harsh and that students are postponing assignments because they're overwhelmed. I do get this, and am willing to make exceptions for students who have had to deal with illness or personal problems, but right now I think there's this general attitude that only their own schedule matters. I am busy too, and teaching other courses at the moment. AIBU?

I hope to gain some time, and have students actually show up to tutorials and do the work while the course is running. I am not failing them. They can still resubmit, get feedback, and resubmit again. I just refuse to help them save time by discussing and approving their design first. Because that's what the tutorials were for.

That would give the impression that the later deadlines are something other than what they are: resit opportunities. I could do it in theory but I don't think the university would formally allow it. The course is over, and the students are supposed to have passed.

By having four deadlines several months apart that they can “opt” for, you have created the situation where you are allowing students to choose one of the four deadlines depending on their individual timetables and course loads.

I suspect that @WiseBlankie didn’t set those deadlines- it’ll be the university allowing students to take automatic extensions. My place allows an automatic 3 day extension which students can take without having to have a reason. So I just set due dates 3 days earlier.

It doesn't seem reasonable to offer several dates when the work can be handed in but only offer the feedback sessions for the first date.

You're calling them all deadlines, but in your mind only the first date is a deadline. Meanwhile the students are looking at three possible dates to shoot for, but only if they choose the first of three perfectly reasonable dates will they get the feedback.

Either offer only one actual deadline or offer feedback at all three.

Isn’t this what office hours are for? That said, I have held extra drop-in sessions if there is obviously a lot of demand before the deadline. Extensions can be granted but a resit means the mark is capped at a pass so there is a considerable incentive for students to attend sessions for feedback and submit on time

Agree.

It doesn't seem reasonable to offer several dates when the work can be handed in but only offer the feedback sessions for the first date.

I agree. The additional sessions should be incorporated into the timetable.

If the terminology the students are reading in their course description (or whatever communication they receive wrt dates) is as mixed up as the terms in your posts, no wonder they're not doing the work til the "later deadlines"

A deadline is a deadline is a deadline...

There is only one deadline mentioned in the course literature. That's the June deadline, which is the real, official deadline. That is also the only deadline I ever refer to in class. But our university allows for 3 resit / resubmission opportunities automatically and the students are well aware of that.

Spell it out…

”I give feedback at X times in tutorials. Look we all know how this works, a percentage of you are going to take advantage of the rest/resubmit policy. Be aware that feedback is not included in those deadlines. So if you think you are headed in that direction it behooves you to at least have your project to -whatever point- by X time to get feedback on Y. Otherwise you are on your own…no exceptions”

They have not been explicitly warned that I would not give them feedback individually later on if they made the decision not to show up, but in my opinion this is implied. I am not a private tutor.

You would be eaten alive by any university's access office. Everything has to be explicitly set out. Otherwise it puts some learners at a huge disadvantage. Surely you know that?

Are the resits not capped? Barring mit circs, that is?

Yes, they're capped whether you've failed or missed the deadline - doesn't matter (barring mit circs of course). Most students don't particularly care though because while it is a compulsory course, it doesn't count towards their degree classification.

Next year - intentionally block out a tutorial or two, ask for one tutorial before each deadline - so you can give verbal feedback - for each set who complete the work

Okay. I mean you are not being unreasonable if you have explicitly stated that the tutorials are the one and only opportunity for feedback. You are within your rights to say no.

It most likely isn't a 'cant be bothered issue'. For you this project might seem like an easy just-get-it-done kind of thing but for undergraduates it may be the first time they have completed work of this nature, especially if it's the kind of project where you come up with your own research question.

If it's a repeated problem the feedback during tutorial approach may need to be changed. The best lecturer I know wanted their students to do well. Rather than a formal tutorial he ran a weekly drop in session at the campus bar where students could casually come and ask questions about their projects. That helped to filter the students who wanted to do well but were struggling for whatever reason with those who just couldn't be bothered.

Perhaps setting up a drop in session closer to the other deadlines where you don't read their work and provide feedback but answer any specific questions. That way you don't have to read a hundred essays or plans.

Ultimately if your policy is that you only provide feedback during tutorials then you must make that clear. It's a bit harsh in my opinion.

It is made very clear that these tutorials are their opportunity to receive feedback on their designs. They have not been explicitly warned that I would not give them feedback individually later on if they made the decision not to show up, but in my opinion this is implied

I didn't tell them but it was implied isn't good enough and clearly is leading to this misunderstanding.

TELL them. Tell them in advance, explicitly, that the tutorials on x dates are the ONLY opportunity they have to get their work checked before they submit it and that no pre-submission feedback will be provided on work after X date (final tutorial).

I really think that the attitude of some people on here saying you should essentially give feedback based on the students’ desired timing as opposed to what you set as the feedback sessions is what is creating so many students and young professionals with zero resilience or professional capabilities. I am constantly amazed at the attitude my wife’s students show in this regard. Miss deadlines, ignore word limits, don’t turn up to tutorials and still expect essays to be marked in full/catch up sessions etc. Absolutely incredible, and I can only assume its because so far in life people have just allowed them to get away with this stuff with no consequence. The ONLY way they will learn is if there are consequences.

For next year, you need to be explicit at the start of the year that the opportunity for feedback is at the sessions on X and Y date and you will not be providing feedback outside of these sessions. This is completely reasonable. In reality of course if somebody has a disability or can’t attend any of the sessions due to genuine and reasonable reasons, you can support, but for 90% of them - no.

For this year, I would add one more session, be again absolutely explicit that this is it, and then do no more. I say this because if you haven’t been explicit and they are used to behaving like this and getting away with it, then it is probably a little unfair on them. But this solution will take you less time and effort than reviewing and replying to each of them 1 by 1.

At the large amount of fees these young people are paying YABU.
give them feedback - this is your job.

I find this so harsh. A university course has a fee - you attend the classes covered by that fee. If you elect to not attend the classes you've paid for, it's on you isn't it?

As far as I can see, OP is talking about people who stake their whole result on a resit submission date. The course is over by then - they haven't passed or failed because they've done nothing! There are five opportunities to get feedback, but anyway, it doesn't sound like OP is abandoning students who did this and yet still failed, just those who didn't engage at the time specified and then expected a service after the course had ended.

That said OP, if a colleague thinks it's harsh then you might want to check you're covered by the course T&Cs, and even if you are, that these are fair terms from the perspective of the student as 'consumer'. I guess there's a legal team who could advise?

As someone who actually runs studies, I think you should change your assignment criteria. Getting their study approved before running it should be a required element of the course.

why?

1. efficiency. Don’t waste their time, don’t waste subject’s time, and don’t waste resources if it is lab based
2. compliance. If these studies involve people in any way, in the real world that means going through human subjects protection approval and data protection review before starting work. Even though this is a class project, it is a good idea to get used to that step. You might also inadvertently have students violating gdpr or regulations
3. it might help some of them manage their time better and be less likely to not meet the first deadline

Not unreasonable - honestly the current system is just unfair to the students that do bother to show up for the feedback session. Take a hard line and soon you will find those feedback sessions are more popular. I used to do the right thing and show up and was so annoyed that the others who didn’t bother got around the system.

Completely agree with this. Where I work students also get 3 re-sit opportunities, but the grade doesn't get capped. As a result, quite a few students don't hand in the work for the official deadline and just aim for one of the re-sit dates.

I also offer two feedback sessions before the assignment is due, but make it very clear to my students that that is their opportunity to get feedback/input. They don't have to attend, but if they don't, then there is no other opportunity for feedback.

With the fees young people are paying you think they'd actually value their education and try to get their money's worth by turning up to class.

I have a gym membership. That doesn't mean I can turn up at 10am and expect a yoga instructor to be on hand to do some sun salutations with me just because I couldn't be bothered to go the 8am yoga class.

Those fees don't translate into a large salary for the OP though. Do you do lots of effectively unpaid overtime at your own job?

Yes I do! Loads of it. I work with children and I’m always doing extra. Young people at uni now are struggling with extra work and jobs to fund themselves due to the col and parents unable to help like they did. I think they need some slack really.