To expect some basic manners from children?

[vickidoodah]

Twice in the last 24 hours kids have been unfriendly and not corrected by their parents.

1. looked after DC (8) class mate all day. Parent arrives to collect them and child is rude to parent then refuses to thank us or return to say goodbye after walking out without saying anything. Parent rolls eyes and says child is tired.
2. meet up with friend and their 2 children. I say hi to them and her DC 9 looks at me and otherwise ignores me. I raise eyebrow to friend who says they need to warm up and will be fine in about 20mins.

AIBU to think the parents are not helping their children by excusing this rude behaviour? All children NT.

But why can't you do both. You can still talk to your child afterwards but I wouldn't ignore the present behaviour as it's happening. If someone gives you something or does something for you, you need to say thankyou.

I don't think you are unreasonable to expect politeness from kids, but those specific situations aren't the right place to have a go at them and make a scene.
I would apologise on their behalf and discuss it with them afterwards.

I'm an absolute stickler for manners, more than once I've been told that DS is old fashioned (in a cute way) usually just after he's said no thank you. Some of it is him being assertive politely, we were in a shop this week and he was offered a sweet, it was one he doesn't like and we'd just had lunch and he'd had a giant jammie dodger type biscuit our local café make, he said no thank you, the shop worker then said oh go on mummy won't mind, and he said no thank you, I'm fine, thank you though. It was completely polite but made his point.
Please, thank you, hello, goodbye , sorry , thanks for having me/us etc should be pretty much automatic. These aren't toddlers still learning they are choosing their words or lack of them.

No, and I know that. The overall philosophy of making sure your children do say please and thank you will eventually click, if it's consistent.

I've taught many shy children through the years, and my middle child was also a bit selective about saying thank you to strangers when she was much younger.

In that case, I reminded her there and then, and if she still didn't say it, I said to the person 'she's a bit shy, but thank you'. I always made sure to let the person know that I wanted my child to say thank you, that they were shy but that ultimately we were appreciative of whatever they gave us. I didn't just let the silence or lack of response hang there. I'm not saying you do either, but it's not an 'oh well, they're shy, so I guess nobody will be saying thank you'.

In the OPs example, the child had already walked off after not saying thank you. I don't see the point in halling them back (though you may disagree, that's fine). Especially if by this point the child is feeling very tired and grumpy. My own view is that it's better to let them go off to the car, cool down and we will talk about it later. But if you handled it differently, that's also fine!

My point was there are multiple different ways to parent. Not discipling in front of someone is ok, but you can do it differently. I'd like to think my friends don't judge me and I don't judge them. The world would be a nicer place if everyone was just a little more supportive and a little less judgey.

Given that OP that's they "refused" to be polite, it was clearly asked of them at the time. If they - for whatever reason - decided they won't then the only way this will go is an argument.

Honestly, you can actually do both. You can tell your children to say thank you, because that's what you expect from them and then in car home have a chat if you think something is off with your child. You can still have a strong emotional connection with your child which is based on earth, love, empathy, trust and gentle communication and still expect them to say 'thank you' at the time.

Completely agree with this.

I read a lot of ‘Gentle parenting’ books when my kids were little- there’s lots of aspects to it I agree with (and much I don’t)- but one thing I really disagree with is, is her advice not to force a child to say please/thank you/sorry- but to model saying it, with the hope that in time, the child will learn to say these things for themselves.

I think this does such a huge disservice to our children. Whether we like it or not, you can’t help but warm to a child who says please and thank you when appropriate, and to feel irritated when they don’t- it’s human nature. If you teach your child to be polite, it will make sooo many interactions and relationships in their life that bit easier. As the poster above says, it doesn’t have to come from a place of deep authentic gratitude- it’s simply a hugely powerful short cut to make interactions with other humans, including people who know nothing about you, run so much more smoothly.

Yes I'm sure, but if the child has already walked off (as in the OP) then it might not be helpful to hall them back. Up to you though, I'm not passing judgement.

I don’t want to consistently call my child shy in front of her to others. She’d be hearing it all the time otherwise. I do comment and say let’s say thank you. I don’t really care if a stranger then still thinks she is rude for still not always saying thank you. I don’t need to tell them ‘she is shy’ for them to feel better about her not saying it. If they went to think she is rude then fine but I remind her to say it and if she doesn’t I have a chat to her about it afterwards. She is only 4 and is getting better and better at it with strangers.

Manners are the absolute bare minimum I expect from everyone. I don't care if your tired or grumpy not an excuse. If it's done from babies these arguments shouldn't be happening in older children saying 2 words takes no brain power and 2 seconds. When my girls where babies I'd always say ta passing things back and forward it was just standard.. just like my children have to brush their teeth everyday it's not a choice just because their tired or grumpy it's expected

YANBU. I am very demanding re manners with my children, to the point of being a meaner mum than I should be. However, I can see scenario 1 happening with my DS1 (nearly 6, so a bit younger). I can imagine that if he was in a mood to be rude to / angry with me, I wouldn’t want to escalate the situation by dragging him back in and demanding that he thank you (I might well be embarrassed to do this in front of you as I would likely resort to shouting and dragging). In that case, I might decide to let it go but I would apologise to you and thank you myself at the time, tell DS off once on our own, and would also probably text or mention it next time I saw you. I think it’s hard for parents though. Just writing this makes me feel as though my kids are too rude AND I parent too strictly. That’s not ideal, is it?

That's great! I also expect my children to say thank you, please etc.. Sounds like we both value manners. However, I recognise children are human, still learning and there will be times that an 8 year old will forget, be in a bad mood and not do as asked, be tired etc... it's normal! I don't see the OPs examples as that bad. The odd lapse in manners perfection as a child is fine! They r learning!

One has to put "please and thank you on rinse and repeat". Every time my DS1 comes home I say "and what do you say?". He is learning but it takes time. He'll be 30 at Christmas.

He's actually turned out OK and the export model, I understand, is kind, respectful and courteous.

🤣🤣

I do think 4 is still quite young and it's still a work in progress at that point, depending on the child. The children in the OP were 8 and 9, definitely old enough to force a 'thank you' or a 'hello'. My point was that there are parents who don't really care if their child says thank you or nor, and by not showing come kind of acknowledgment that their child hadn't said it, they can come across as kind of complicit in the apparent ingratitude. That is different to encouraging your small child to say it but them not being quite ready to say it to strangers (at 4 years old).

My DD would be like the second example. She has selective mutism. Trust me... she hates it more than you think her rude. (She's 13 now).
She can now make eye contact and give a non verbal acknowledgement like a smile or a nod, instead of looking like a trapped deer.

Edited to add... if she had been with you all day she could say thank you. And would.

Even if the child did not want to be there in the first place, it is still normal good manners to say "thank you for having me." Whatever the circumstances, the hostess has put herself out for this child and it is common courtesy to show appreciation for that fact. How difficult is that? The old saying is that manners cost nothing. Rudeness is unacceptable. It sounds as if you are part of the problem.

My point was there are multiple different ways to parent. Not discipling in front of someone is ok, but you can do it differently. I'd like to think my friends don't judge me and I don't judge them. The world would be a nicer place if everyone was just a little more supportive and a little less judgey
The issue is not so much the first time it happens. Indeed, explaining calmly why a behaviour is not appropriate so that the child learn is all good. The problem is when they don't learn.

I would expect this conversation following this sort of behaviour to have taken place much earlier than at 8 years old, so something obviously has gone wrong. Either it doesn't work or the child isn't learning and know they can act like a brat because they'll again get away with it.

A e years old that bumps into me and then run to their parent feeling intimidated, I have sympathy especially when the parent explains that was an occasion to say 'sorry'. An 8 year old that act the same? I think poor parenting.

YABU - The first example is silly. The parent should be grateful and showing appreciation. I personally wouldn't come write an MN thread over this. If id known you were the type to write a thread like this, over that example, I wouldn't feel confident having my child come round. I imagine the mum is none the wiser as to your thoughts. If the kid is consistently rude and difficult, then fair enough, but this?

The second example, if it were me, I'd challenge the child on no response. Are you ok? I was just asking x,y,z. They aren't mutants and I imagine this is not beyond them. I do this and it's fine.

I find we have the opposite problem to what you're highlighting. That is parents who are so devastated about how they appear as mums, how they are judged and what others think of them. This post exemplifies it, wherein people are desperate to show they are good mummies and seek validation. It kind of gets in the way of the important stuff.

The place where I see room for some to really stress about this is in teaching. I see some posts regards very difficult pupils and if the parents aren't helpful, I see that as a potential growing problem.

Whoever said all kids are just ND these days, also pretty silly really. Do we have an influx of data on incorrectly diagnosed children or adults? I'll hazard a guess that we don't. I don't understand why this reality is so scary.

ND kids are not incapable of manners either.

Appreciate that if mums removing a flailing child under her arm like a handbag ( been there), then you're understandably not going to get a thankyou Mrs Doodah for the scrumptious cookies.

I don't think you can pass judgement on parenting by a one off brief interaction with an 8 year old who doesn't say sorry. You have literally no access to any contextual information.

I don't think people can really judge parenting in any 8 year old. When I was 8 you'd have thought I was the most polite, well mannered, lovely little girl and maybe assumed my parents were thus excellent! You would not have realised the only reason for my excellent manners was fear, abuse and intimidation at home. I was taught to say 'how do you do' and shake hands with any adult I met and was introduced to as a child. I had to say 'thank you for having me' at the end of every play date. I said my please and thank you's like my life depended on it (partly because I believed it did). I was allowed NO mistakes, lapses in concentration, off days, shyness etc... there was NO excuse.

When I meet children now who are like I was - the exceptionally polite ones, the ones who say thank you, then say it again, or say sorry a few times when they've done nothing wrong. Those kids who say 'thank you for having me' again and again or who return to the house to thank me after they've already said it once and left. Those children who have never ever forgotten to thank you, who you know will hold the door open for everyone, carry other people's jumpers or bags, who will carry their plate to the sink and thank you for the meal twice, waiting for you to smile or acknowledge you heard them or to say 'youre welcome' to reassure them you did hear their thanks. I worry about them a bit.

My kids do a sport activity of a weekend

They ve been taught to thank the coach at the end. They are the only ones. Every week.

Seriously, parenting skills generally are rubbish. Kids are rude, can't talk, cant even use the toilet, misbehave etc etc. Parents just think it's their job to give them e erything they want immediately they want it.

I've not been.on mumsnet long but all i read constantly is all these children are ND, have ADHD etc etc. Nobody had these initials assigned when I was at school, didn't have all these children who couldnt/wouldn't do x,y,z. Proper parenting has hone out the window.

Exactly this

I worry about them a bit
You can't worry about a child just because they are very polite. There are many other signs of potential abuse much more likely to signal it than just being polite.