Page 6 | Conservatives and Labour - is there really any difference for middle class working families

Sweetcup · 2024-10-28T08:14:20+00:00

Please convince me otherwise as I'm feeling utterly depressed. I really can't see what is on offer to middle class families from either party - it appears to be exactly the same. High taxes, no guarantee of decent state education or access to medical care, horrible driving on roads, criminals out of prison early picked up in luxury cars. Our salaries are worth less than they were 7 years ago. In principle I don't mind paying high taxes but it really doesn't seem to be a guarantee of anything. Our local state secondary is dreadful as a few (non-working) families seem able to disrupt the education of the rest. As a tax payer I don't feel either the Conservatives or Labour have ever spoken to me directly about what my money is doing and what they are guaranteeing for it. We cut right back (no Netflix, eating our, no takeout) to put money into our pensions and now I just feel like that means we will have done it to pay for other people's state funded retirements.

Cyclingmummy1 · 28/10/2024 15:41

thepariscrimefiles · 28/10/2024 11:45

Robert Jenrick ordered staff to paint over pictures of Disney characters on the walls of a child refugee centre as he thought the cartoons made it look too welcoming. I would call that 'dripping in spite'.

The Tory government's refusal to extend free school meals to the poorest children during the school holidays during Covid was 'dripping in spite'.

By 'dripping in spite', I presume you mean that the Labour Government is bringing in policies to benefit the majority of children who don't attend private school and not the 7% of already privileged children who do.

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Please explain the benefit to the majority of children.

Morph22010 · 28/10/2024 15:48

Cyclingmummy1 · 28/10/2024 15:41

Please explain the benefit to the majority of children.

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I suppose it’s the free breakfast clubs that will benefit majority of kids, that’s only policy I can think of that’s been announced.

Genevieva · 28/10/2024 15:56

Free bus fairs for the elderly have multiple social benefits. As well as recognising that more retired people live in poverty than any other demographic, so often cannot afford to run a car, it persuades some of them, who really ought to stop driving, to travel by bus instead. Where I live, the only people who use buses seem to be the elderly, who have the time to. There will be no bus users if free bus fares are removed. And there will probably be more car accidents.

cardibach · 28/10/2024 16:00

Clavinova · 28/10/2024 11:56

cardibach
From a Starmer press release which unaccountably doesn’t seem to have featured in main news/analysis broadcasts yet

There was something in the Guardian yesterday;

Keir Starmer will promise to “embrace the harsh light of fiscal reality” on Monday as his chancellor prepares to unveil a budget that includes billions of pounds’ worth of tax rises and spending cuts.

Well that’s my point really. They reported that bit, but not the comment I quoted, which is rather pertinent, don’t you think?

SmileyHappyPeopleInTheSun · 28/10/2024 16:02

EasternStandard · 28/10/2024 14:15

Headline on bus fares going up. How that creates a greener fairer place who knows. It'll hit people on lower incomes harder

Still much cheaper than I pay here in Wales though I agree it sound counter to the green commitments.

I lived in a northern English city when kids were young and the council knew were in a death spiral with bus fares - they go up people use less fare have to go up few years after we left they had hit real problems. So I do feel some what lucky we have decent bus services at all even when it's pricy.

I suspect it was a hard choice - they can't put more central money is as everything needs money but don't want to starve bus routes/companies of money so they end up disappearing.

Bushmillsbabe · 28/10/2024 16:12

Morph22010 · 28/10/2024 15:48

I suppose it’s the free breakfast clubs that will benefit majority of kids, that’s only policy I can think of that’s been announced.

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But has it been announced? In the manifesto it said that free breakfast clubs would be available for every child. This has been scaled back to a 'trial' in a small number of schools.

Domino20 · 28/10/2024 16:13

JustAnotherPoster00 · 28/10/2024 08:54

I'm also here in Wales enjoying my free prescriptions but on a more serious note why do a certain demographic of people (right leaning reform/tory voters, mainly english incomers) think Wales are failing because if they where people would vote them out and they haven't for as long as the Senedd has been around, so for the most part Labour are doing a good job here in Wales what does need looking at is the Barnett formula, my country having had its resources stolen by the English for centuries should be redressed in the formula and not kept at the pittance level it is

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100% this.

thepariscrimefiles · 28/10/2024 16:14

Cyclingmummy1 · 28/10/2024 15:41

Please explain the benefit to the majority of children.

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More funding put into state schools, some of which will pay for free breakfast clubs for primary school children.

ForMintUser · 28/10/2024 16:19

thepariscrimefiles · 28/10/2024 16:14

More funding put into state schools, some of which will pay for free breakfast clubs for primary school children.

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I don’t want to derail the thread but if you look into the detail of this it’s plain to see this won’t bring in any money at all.

Bushmillsbabe · 28/10/2024 16:34

ForMintUser · 28/10/2024 16:19

I don’t want to derail the thread but if you look into the detail of this it’s plain to see this won’t bring in any money at all.

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Even if it does raise money, the most optimistic amount figures are it will raise about £20 per state school child per year.
So about 1 weeks breakfast clubs pee child per year

Frowningprovidence · 28/10/2024 16:40

Genevieva · 28/10/2024 13:40

I agree with you. A new set of incompetent sailors in the same sinking ship doesn’t change anything. They are still intent on the same uncompetitive and economy-shrinking course.

Jeremy Hunt increased taxes to the highest level in our peacetime history. And, last time taxes were this high, the thresholds were set sufficiently high that ordinary working class voters paid almost no income tax. The freezing of income tax thresholds relative to inflation has dragged people in moderately paid professions like classroom teaching into the higher tax bracket. On top of a gross salary that is subject to 20% basic rate of income tax, the government receives employer NI of 13.8% plus employee NI of 8%, giving a basic rate taxpayer a marginal tax rate of 41.8%, which is high. Increasing employer NI will make employing people more expensive and suppress wages.

Furthermore, Jeremy Hunt increased corporation tax to 24%. This is amongst the highest in Europe. Higher than Sweden and Denmark (known as high tax economies) and double Ireland’s. Combined with the above, this makes doing business here inordinately expensive. The largest contributor to our economy is the financial services industry, which is highly mobile, so we risk eviscerating our tax base if we are not competitive.

Meanwhile, we have created one of the most expensive welfare states in the world. 20% of adolescents receive DLA. 18% of working age adults receive PIP. For every successful recipient of PIP, 1.5 people have claimed and failed. In effect, half the working age population have deemed it worthwhile applying to receive DLA. So, on the one hand we have the highest life expectancy, best access to healthcare and greatest range of employment opportunities and technological aids in our history, making it easier than ever before to find suitable employment. On the other hand, perceived disability is at a record high, with half the population of Britain thinking they are so disabled that their neighbours should pay them a monetary allowance through the tax system. PIP alone cost the taxpayer £20 billion a year. DLA costs a similar amount. This is projected to rise to a combined £58 billion in the next three to four years.

54% of households are net beneficiaries of the state, meaning they receive more in benefits than they pay in tax. The average taxpayer earns c.£36,000 a year and pays c.£4,600 income tax, so it takes all of the income tax of almost 9 million average taxpayers to cover just the PIP and DLA elements of the welfare bill. Then there are all the many benefits that are paid to ordinary families, some of which are called tax credits, despite having no relationship to tax paid. these have enabled multinational corporations to suppress wages at the low end and pay their executive excessively.

The total cost of the welfare state is in excess of £240 billion or £6,500 per taxpayer (significantly more than the average taxpayer pays). It’s totally unsustainable, but successive governments have found it easier to increase taxes than do the painful job of cutting unnecessary civil service jobs and welfare benefits to sustainable levels. We are now so far past the sweet spot on the Lather curve that more tax rises will probably reduce total tax revenue, so the government are in a Catch 22 mess of their own making.

Do you have a source for the 20% of adolescents claiming DLA. The best I can find is 15-16 year olds are more likely to be claiming disability benefits than any other age group but it has them at 8%. I can also only see around 10% of working age adults getting a health related benefit (they include incapacity and PIP in that)

Also a little context that disability spending is forecast to rise to about 4% of total public spending at that 58 billion figure. It is currently less than 4%. It's around 12% of the welfare bill.

GasPanic · 28/10/2024 16:42

I mean the middle class are always a target to raise money.

You can't tax the working poor because they have no cash. You can't tax the rich because they just hide it or move it away.

The middle class are the only group rich enough and numerous to be taxed.

So any swingeing tax rises are going to fall on them, no matter what party is in charge.

Genevieva · 28/10/2024 16:47

Frowningprovidence · 28/10/2024 16:40

Do you have a source for the 20% of adolescents claiming DLA. The best I can find is 15-16 year olds are more likely to be claiming disability benefits than any other age group but it has them at 8%. I can also only see around 10% of working age adults getting a health related benefit (they include incapacity and PIP in that)

Also a little context that disability spending is forecast to rise to about 4% of total public spending at that 58 billion figure. It is currently less than 4%. It's around 12% of the welfare bill.

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Recent news article. Do an online search. I suspect it was the Telegraph or Times as I have free subscriptions.

Cyclingmummy1 · 28/10/2024 16:49

thepariscrimefiles · 28/10/2024 16:14

More funding put into state schools, some of which will pay for free breakfast clubs for primary school children.

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There are 13 times more pupils in the state sector, it's not going to go very far.

Frowningprovidence · 28/10/2024 16:56

Genevieva · 28/10/2024 16:47

Recent news article. Do an online search. I suspect it was the Telegraph or Times as I have free subscriptions.

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I have done an online search. I looked at the office for financial responsibility and the IFS and the government's. Gov.uk website. I couldn't verify your figures which is why I wondered if you could. I have a telegraph subscription and still can't see that..

Is it possible you have remembered the stats for people who are disabled rather than claiming benefits or all economically inactive people which is around 20% too but includes other groups like carers.

GasPanic · 28/10/2024 16:59

Cyclingmummy1 · 28/10/2024 16:49

There are 13 times more pupils in the state sector, it's not going to go very far.

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It's a red meat policy. It isn't designed to do anything other than appeal to the faithful.

Seasmoke · 28/10/2024 17:16

Clavinova · 28/10/2024 12:25

Have hospital waiting lists gone down yet? Boat arrivals have gone up I see and the government are opening more asylum hotels. Rachel Reeves could save a quick £5/£6 billion on the overseas climate aid pledge due next year.

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Anecdotally, in my family we are chock a block with various hospital appointments over the next couple of months, where my DS and DH have been on waiting lists for ages. Not sure if it's a coincidence or just us though. Also, more overstayers have been deported in 3 months than would have left under the Rwanda scheme. Nothing happened in government for years because the Tories were busy infighting and changing leader every 5 minutes.

HarrisObviously · 28/10/2024 17:48

twomanyfrogsinabox · 28/10/2024 08:17

What labour are going to do will be clearer after the budget. But yes usually lesser of evils, not one is so much better than the other for anyone really. Both parties are pretty central politically.

The Tories are pretty central politically?
You can't be serious. They've been well right of centre and both of their leadership candidates in the last 2 to be selected are very right wing on so many points.
Do you believe that Tories and Labour 'they are all the same' ?

Mlanket · 28/10/2024 18:06

I don’t think there will be much difference because of the shift in demographics and this resulting impact on public services.

Mlanket · 28/10/2024 18:12

Meanwhile, we have created one of the most expensive welfare states in the world. 20% of adolescents receive DLA.

I don’t think that’s correct. 1.2m claim DLA & AA is claimed by 1.6m

The total cost of the welfare state is in excess of £240 billion or £6,500 per taxpayer (significantly more than the average taxpayer pays). It’s totally unsustainable, but successive governments have found it easier to increase taxes than do the painful job of cutting unnecessary civil service jobs and welfare benefits to sustainable levels.

Does that include the NHS and state pension?

Derogations · 28/10/2024 18:14

People retire too early and live too long.

And while they are retired they go to all the meetings about Houses being built in the local area and object.

Income tax rates should be reduced.

Mlanket · 28/10/2024 18:14

We never recovered from the 08 crash, wages are dreadful in this country. Not helped by the low interest rates which inflated assets. There is huge intergenerational inequality as young people have been ignored rather than invested in. In the 60s there were 5 workers to 1 pensioner now it’s 3:1 and not far off 2:1.

Hateam · 28/10/2024 19:34

"The upper class keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there...just to scare the shit out of the middle class. Keep them turning up for those jobs" -George Carlin'

Clavinova · 28/10/2024 20:22

Seasmoke · 28/10/2024 17:16

Anecdotally, in my family we are chock a block with various hospital appointments over the next couple of months, where my DS and DH have been on waiting lists for ages. Not sure if it's a coincidence or just us though. Also, more overstayers have been deported in 3 months than would have left under the Rwanda scheme. Nothing happened in government for years because the Tories were busy infighting and changing leader every 5 minutes.

Edited

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The latest NHS waiting list figures seem to be for August (7.64 million appointments) - up slightly on June and July (7.62 million).

https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/pressures/nhs-backlog-data-analysis

The last government were not planning to deport 'overstayers' to Rwanda though - they did deport elsewhere;

In the year ending June 2024 there were 7,190 enforced returns, an increase of 48% on the previous year (4,873).

In the year ending June 2024 there were 22,361 voluntary returns, up 45% from the year ending June 2023.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-system-statistics-year-ending-june-2024/how-many-people-are-detained-or-returned

SundayBloodySunday · 28/10/2024 20:40

@Genevieva

It sounds completely plausible when you write but it's just not correct. In 2019, just over 20% of GDP was used on welfare. The OCED average was 19.8%.

The vast majority of welfare is actually spent on pensions. Bet you don't begrudge them. Importantly, the Welfare Benefit Generosity has been low since 1980s.

What really concerns me is that the Telegraph/Times whatever right wing press types this crap, makes people believe that it's all these benefit scroungers that are taking all the money. We have an aging population and lots of them who are living longer and with poorer health than their parents. The majority is pensions.

Wages have been suppressed and tax is high, but just not as simple as it's because of Tax Credits. Though I do agree, Gordon Brown did subside poor wages that the corporates offer. But he also saw fewer children in poverty.

The same newspapers come up with rubbish about immigrants taking, presumably all the Tax Credits.....It's so depressing. We need people to come and work. Please don't tell me they are just here for the benefits....