Conservatives and Labour - is there really any difference for middle class working families

[Sweetcup]

Please convince me otherwise as I'm feeling utterly depressed.

I really can't see what is on offer to middle class families from either party - it appears to be exactly the same. High taxes, no guarantee of decent state education or access to medical care, horrible driving on roads, criminals out of prison early picked up in luxury cars. Our salaries are worth less than they were 7 years ago.

In principle I don't mind paying high taxes but it really doesn't seem to be a guarantee of anything. Our local state secondary is dreadful as a few (non-working) families seem able to disrupt the education of the rest. As a tax payer I don't feel either the Conservatives or Labour have ever spoken to me directly about what my money is doing and what they are guaranteeing for it.

We cut right back (no Netflix, eating our, no takeout) to put money into our pensions and now I just feel like that means we will have done it to pay for other people's state funded retirements.

This. There’s a lot more to things being done “for your benefit” than just how much tax you pay!

Yes it's about the choices that they make.
There is definitely a difference. But it takes time to filter through.

You'll see better differences in the long term because Labour are repairing public services instead of funnelling money into theirs' and their friends' pockets.

Go to a Scandi country and you'll see what a huge, huge difference it makes. Literally everything is easier for everybody. It makes a big difference to people's day to day happiness and has a knock on effect for everyone else. Plus it means people live longer and more happily than just being collateral damage.

Just a waiting game.

But also you really need to stop thinking of the government as being responsible for your quality of life. If you want a better quality of life, you need to go get it yourself. My quality of life has improved dramatically throughout covid, Liz Truss, everything, because I put a lot of effort into making it that way. It's not going to be handed to you on a plate.

Well already they've done these. Huge difference from the tories

Interestingly Wales's funding for the nhs is currently done on a per capita basis, however the average age in Wales and the proportion of people over 65 is significantly higher than the rest of the UK. As the older you get the more medical issues you get it could be argued that the funding model is unfair as it should be looking at the full demographic picture rather than a simplistic per capita system

Wales spends more per head on health than England - £3,337 in Wales, the highest in the UK, and £3,064 in England.

Nevertheless, waiting times are consistently higher in Wales.
https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/how-well-is-the-nhs-in-wales-performing

Spending per head on education is about the same in England and Wales, at £7,200 per pupil.

There may or may not be an argument for reparations for historical actions, but politically this seems unlikely to happen.

We cut right back (no Netflix, eating our, no takeout) to put money into our pensions and now I just feel like that means we will have done it to pay for other people's state funded retirements
Thank you for paying towards my 'state funded retirement' - barely covers the essentials but let's not quibble - as I paid in towards your parents'/grandparents' retirement for 34 years. This is how the system has worked for generations, but for how much longer?

Not everyone did badly under the Tories!
Michelle Mone now has a nice yacht.

(Ironically, my phone autocorrects Michelle Mone to Michelle Money)

I agree.

I have grandchildren in Scandinavia; I compare their lives - and communities and public well-being - with same-age grandkids in GB. Scandinavians win by a long distance, thanks to years of social-democratic government.

I'm old enough to have lived through several Labour governments as well as Tories. In every case, Labour has improved things for ordinary people, Tories have made things worse for the majority whilst siphoning off wealth for themselves and their friends. Inequality rose with Tories, declined with Labour.

They don't always get everything right - who does? - but say what you like, my own experience, both geographically and historically, is super clear: for ordinary people like me and my family, Labour always makes things better in the end, Tories make things worse.

@TiedyesquadI don't expect presents. Id happily pay more tax but I'd like it to be clear what I'm paying for - that might require a cultural shift more than anything. At the moment it feels like we are throwing good money after bad. If the extra tax to ensure every child has access a high quality state education that can't be achieved by just throwing more money at it but may mean we have higher expectations of behaviour in schools? I did find your post very thoughtful

@yeaitsmeagain thank you. I found your post really helpful. We are really focused on improving our lives. What have you done specifically to improve your.life? I'm just in a bit of a funk at the moment!

@Lifestooshort71 have no problem paying towards your retirement. I would expect every single person gets exactly the same but in the future I doubt that will be the case!

Isn’t it? 👏🏻👏🏻

The main difference is the Tories' premise is cut back state intervention; so people pay less tax but get worse/fewer services. The Labour model is to provide a level of state intervention so that people are reasonably healthy, well educated and have the services to enable them to thrive.

They both want to grow the economy; but the Tory model is incentivise people to work harder/smarter by allowing them to keep more of what they earn (but they will need to spend some of this on the essential services which the state no longer funds properly). Whilst Labour believes that people work more productively, and thus more profitably, when their basic needs are met and they feel empowered.

Too many people think about what is in this for me, rather than what is in this for the country. You have to see the big picture if you want to live in a richer Britain.

The economy of countries now are so integrated there aren't a whole lot of different directions any government can take. It's a global economy.

This is probably why Labour axed the winter fuel payment - as a signal to financial bigwigs outside the country that they are serious about fiscal responsibility. Because if they don't show that their borrowing power will disappear, and then they, and the people, are fucked.

Ultimately whatever party is in power, if they want to fund things they need to increase productivity.

And whatever party is in power, they are living with the effects of post-covid, which are both fiscal and I think psychological. The latter seems to be affecting the ability to increase productivity.

And personally, I think systems like the NHS (Canada is similar) are going to struggle until their underlying structure is revised. I don't think any party can touch that until it fails, and that's on the media and the population.

In the past, the Labour Party has borrowed a lot of money to make changes, but that's just not an option now.

I think that we've forgotten when we used to have dentists, ambulances and other services. If the Conservatives had have got in again we wouldn't have had prison places at all. They've ran things completely into the ground. We are only just learning the extent of the money wasted on projects that were just money making opportunities for their family and friends. Austerity and the bedroom tax/LHA has brought homelessness to the North that wasn't needed, made renting /SH impossible to get and has just meant lots of cheap 3+ bedroom houses for sale as investment opportunities, again for those who are wealthy.

Public serves are the worst they've ever been in my lifetime. People are constantly complaining the police don't come if you call them, people wait hours for ambulances and are told to get to hospitals themselves, the roads are fucked with potholes and constantly damaging cars where I live. They put the council tax up every year but the cut the service every year and have now said that they are stopping collecting the garden bin at all, unless we want to subscribe for an extra service at £60 a year.

I don't mind paying taxes if we get good public services like other high tax countries but I don't think you can seriously argue that we get what we pay for.

I think this is a good summary of the different approaches. And the things is, neither is exactly wrong.

That being said - we seem to have an awful lot of people now who feel entitled to be supported by others, or they'd say the state I suppose. The numbers now working are so high. I know people will say they can't work, but I am increasingly skeptical, we don't see this in places where there isn't this underlying belief that people are entitled to be supported.

As a younger person, I never believed this was a danger of social supports, but I increasingly feel that there really is such a thing as learned helplessness, and totally apart from social consequences, it's actually very bad for people psychologically to feel disempowered.

I can't really see much difference between the two parties. I felt like there was a slim chance that Labour might renationalise a few things like water and a chance that the conservatives might sell even more essential services to make money.

Lived through quite a few governments and yes it's always the middle working class families who lose out, every single time. Not wealthy enough for it not to adversely affect you too much, not poor enough to be eligible for help/benefits

I'm not so much bothered about my own "middle class" circumstances but I would like to see more positive steps for those living on poverty. I would especially like more support for those living with disabilities who seemed demonised under the Tories. I voted Labour but I haven't heard anything yet that makes me feel particularly positive.

I was the same as you but then I was lucky enough to have a disabled child who has an ehcp and goes to specialist school so even though I’m a higher rate tax payer I’m getting more for my money as his school is a lot more expensive per child than mainstream. Same applies for people who are lucky enough to get seriously ill they are then getting their monies worth. The idea of paying in is not for what you get out it’s so it’s there for people that need it which could be you at some point. I’m not saying this works perfectly or even well but fundamentally this is the basic idea

I am not a labour supporter.

But. As a country, we need to swing between left and right so we stay broadly in the centre, we have swung to the right for too long (IMO due to Corben being so utterly detestable to anyone) that now Labour have swung to the right too so we have moved from the centre over to the right.

Or something.

Although debt is still going up, it has and will more as fiscal rules change

Absolutely this.

They are all a bunch of self important, hypocritical megalomaniacs. Anyone who thinks otherwise is utterly deluding themselves.

There is a massive distinction between Labour and the Tories.

Labour are ideological - they are positively dripping in spite. I bitterly regret giving them my vote,
and fear that many of you will too, on Wednesday.

Tell me I’m wrong, please.