Conservatives and Labour - is there really any difference for middle class working families

[Sweetcup]

Please convince me otherwise as I'm feeling utterly depressed.

I really can't see what is on offer to middle class families from either party - it appears to be exactly the same. High taxes, no guarantee of decent state education or access to medical care, horrible driving on roads, criminals out of prison early picked up in luxury cars. Our salaries are worth less than they were 7 years ago.

In principle I don't mind paying high taxes but it really doesn't seem to be a guarantee of anything. Our local state secondary is dreadful as a few (non-working) families seem able to disrupt the education of the rest. As a tax payer I don't feel either the Conservatives or Labour have ever spoken to me directly about what my money is doing and what they are guaranteeing for it.

We cut right back (no Netflix, eating our, no takeout) to put money into our pensions and now I just feel like that means we will have done it to pay for other people's state funded retirements.

My post said nothing about not protecting those who need looking after. Higher taxes does not help lower paid workers, allowing them to keep more of their earned salary does, so increase tax thresholds and/or lower taxes.

Envy and spite is happening and will continue to do so - people who can afford private health and private schools, or any private resources which take the pressure of the state should be encouraged not taxed.

see I’d rather pay for my prescriptions and not have a 5 year wait for a hysterectomy, a 5 year wait for mental health support, and no access to treatments that are freely available in England, oh and a local major hospital with roof that’s crumbled and is now no longer able to take trauma patients, maternity patients, or perform any kind of surgery. Said 5 year wait sounds like it’s going to be 6+ years…

Not the only one - though from posting recently I don't think we're supposed to mention their record here.

Post 16 I'm happier with Welsh education - AS levels being part of A-levels BTEC being an option still and uni funding.

But I saw a recent ITV specials about why reading levels were so low in Wales -
https://www.itv.com/news/2024-10-16/wales-reading-crisis-welsh-government-makes-another-u-turn-on-teaching-methods which was eye opening.

Taxes were always going to have to go up who ever got in- our demographics and lack of investment and real harm austerity did - just have to wait and see where it falls and what they actually do.

Not nearly enough fuss has been made about Welsh students now no longer being able to study individual science subjects at GCSE. Only double science.

From a Starmer press release which unaccountably doesn’t seem to have featured in main news/analysis broadcasts yet:

“If people want to criticise the path we choose, that’s their prerogative. But let them then spell out a different direction. If they think the state has grown too big, let them tell working people which public services they would cut. If they don’t see our long-term investment in infrastructure as necessary, let them explain to working people how they would grow the economy for them."
www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-governments-first-budget-will-invest-in-britains-future

What’s your answer? Or any of the others criticising before they even see the budget?

I agree OP, I doubt it makes a blind bit of difference.

Problem is twofold…

1. cost of middle class living is unaffordable for the latest generation of adults. Just affording housing and childcare is so ridiculously expensive - things like luxury cars and private school fees are off the table. I don’t know anyone who can afford a house like their parents own in the South East. Cost of childcare alone seem to keep households even above six figures feeling strained.

2. all the governments ever do is fiddle around the edges. The tax changes amount to small
   amounts each year - a weekend break or a couple of food shops. There’s never anything radical which actually improves eg housing, schooling etc

I also think the gap between ‘survival wages topped up by benefits’ and ‘oh you’re the middle class you’re loaded’ seems to now be <£1,000 a month which is really not a huge amount.

I’m in Wales and mostly think the Senedd do pretty well within the constraints they have - however as an ex teacher I agree about the Curriculum for Wales. It’s horrible.

No - I agree several prominent people and societies have spoken out.

We very lucky DD2 is missing the whole upheaval - she gets to sit triple and like her older siblings and go on to science A-levels with better foundation. Year below her will as well I think.

We've spent a small fortune on revision and text books at home which will all have to be re-written and re-bought by parents in following years.

English goes back to one GCSE rather than language and Lit which also not sure is a great idea. Though again DD2 French teacher thinks new syllabus does have some areas it will be better than current course.

Robert Jenrick ordered staff to paint over pictures of Disney characters on the walls of a child refugee centre as he thought the cartoons made it look too welcoming. I would call that 'dripping in spite'.

The Tory government's refusal to extend free school meals to the poorest children during the school holidays during Covid was 'dripping in spite'.

By 'dripping in spite', I presume you mean that the Labour Government is bringing in policies to benefit the majority of children who don't attend private school and not the 7% of already privileged children who do.

I'm politically homeless atm.

What are you expecting to get in return for your high taxes that you aren't getting now?

Really? That is bad. I hope Labour don't use that as a 'blueprint' for here as claimed

I feel for students impacted who could have benefited from triple science

There certainly was a difference between 1997/2010 and 2010/2024 as the country went to the dogs in the latter period and real wages have vastly diminished in spite of recent rises. In spite of the banking crisis we as a country were in a much better place in 2010. The difference I feel immediately with this government is that there are grown ups in charge who are actually interested in public service and running the country, even if I may not agree with everything they do.

I don't feel the country has been actually governed at all since 2019. The focus was on Brexit and the inner shenanigans of the Conservative leadership v backbenchers and members, and then Covid, then more pissing about, being corrupt and fucking up the economy. Under their watch my energy bills doubled in a year and mortgage costs went up so yes I think we all noticed a difference in our pockets in the last few years, sometimes a dramatic one in 24 hours after a disastrous budget. I have also noticed a vast and horrific difference in state education and the NHS, in the last 14 years and far moreso in the last five.

cardibach
From a Starmer press release which unaccountably doesn’t seem to have featured in main news/analysis broadcasts yet

There was something in the Guardian yesterday;

Keir Starmer will promise to “embrace the harsh light of fiscal reality” on Monday as his chancellor prepares to unveil a budget that includes billions of pounds’ worth of tax rises and spending cuts.

Those NI cuts & independent review pay rises (both unfunded by Hunt) have to be paid for.

or we don't give workers a pay rise and reverse the NI cuts...

Which is it?

@Hateam
So let me understand why you feel you don't benefit from society. Do you have street lighting? Do you have access to A and E, even if you had to wait 10 hours? Do you have access to transport of any kind. Roads? Clean water? Do you really pay for everything and get nothing in return? I don't want to live in a place where poverty is so endemic that I need to buy for extra security around my block of flats. This is a reality in some countries.

Oh dear. Taxed so heavily and getting nothing in return. Your house is on fire. Are you going to put that out yourself or call the fire service? Burgled? Car stolen? Are you chasing these yourself? Are you living overwhelmed by rubbish you can't dispose of? Taking it to the tip yourself? Fallen ill suddenly, need an ambulance? Off you crawl to the er, hospital which isn't there because taxpayers refused to fund it. This is a small amount of services. I don't care how much tax you are paying, I guarantee it's not enough to fully fund the 'nothing' you receive in services without even noticing them.

We are taxed so heavily - DP in higher tax bracket but we get nothing in return

Nothing? The NHS? Police? Armed forces? Fire brigade if you need it? Social Services? Roads and transport planning? Weekly rubbish and recycling collections? School places for your children? University education paid for upfront by Government loan? A society which is largely civilised with no need for gated communities with security to prevent armed home invasions?

I would have cut the overseas climate aid pledge first (Hunt was going to cut it) and not given doctors a 22% pay rise. There's not universal praise for this scheme either;

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/11/labour-carbon-capture-climate-breakdown

Yet you keep voting them in.

It would be nice if I could access childcare support, given the astronomical cost of childcare.

It’s really radicalised me, being excluded from childcare support.

Feels like the most monumental ‘fuck you’, given the amount of tax I pay. And it excludes 2% of parents using formal childcare so the savings must be absolutely minuscule too.

I’ve had to consciously choose the most affordable nursery to enable me to fund it (full time), while those I know with local grandparents or able to work compressed hours use less hours, can claim the hours, opt for the better nursery etc. It’s a bit grating.

That’s really hard luck for you. Maybe one day you’ll have good luck and maybe have a disabled child p, have an accident or get really ill with a life limiting condition that the treatment costs the nhs thousands so you will be at least getting something back

But that is a one off scheme, over many years.... the cut in NI has to be covered every year and its index linked to wages.

However, at frst glance seems like a bit of waste, better to reduce emissions in the first place... via using less fosil fuels.

Doctors pay rise? its about 1.5 billion per year (net after extra tax & ni taken) a lot of money but how much was an on-going strike going to cost?

Not great if can't go back to work because your op is cancelled.

We are neither better no worse off. Tories pay me less and tax me less (nhs worker). Labour pay me more and tax me more.

I am hoping some of the labour promises will come to fruition, particularly the free school meals for all primary children and free breakfast clubs for all primary. I know many who are just over the cut off for free school meals and funded holiday playschemes and really struggle. We really need to address the earning potential of hard working people who are on low wages through having to find a job within school hours, which often affects women disproportionately as they are more likely to be a single parent. Work needs to pay, there needs to be a significant lifestyle benefit for working hard vs choosing not to work.

But communities need to help themselves rather than expecting the government to do everything. I'm lucky to live in a place where the residents take responsibility for nurturing children through free clubs, keeping it clean through litter picks, regular fundraising for commuinity amenities etc

All children aged 3 and 4 are eligible for free childcare for 15 hours per week, 38 weeks per year irrespective of parental income.

If parental income exceeds £100,000, their children are not eligible for the 30 free hours scheme.

Therefore, you can access some childcare support (15 hours), just less than people earning less than £100,000 per year.