Conservatives and Labour - is there really any difference for middle class working families

[Sweetcup]

Please convince me otherwise as I'm feeling utterly depressed.

I really can't see what is on offer to middle class families from either party - it appears to be exactly the same. High taxes, no guarantee of decent state education or access to medical care, horrible driving on roads, criminals out of prison early picked up in luxury cars. Our salaries are worth less than they were 7 years ago.

In principle I don't mind paying high taxes but it really doesn't seem to be a guarantee of anything. Our local state secondary is dreadful as a few (non-working) families seem able to disrupt the education of the rest. As a tax payer I don't feel either the Conservatives or Labour have ever spoken to me directly about what my money is doing and what they are guaranteeing for it.

We cut right back (no Netflix, eating our, no takeout) to put money into our pensions and now I just feel like that means we will have done it to pay for other people's state funded retirements.

@Alexandra2001 Employer NI contributions going up WILL affect 'working people', just not immediately.
Businesses have got to find the money to fund them from somewhere so it will come from their overall staffing budget. That means pay rises will likely be less and/or recruitment will be affected. So whilst you won't see an impact in your pay packet next month, or in the next 3 months, over the longer term it will impact people.
I manage the budget for a SME and I can see how this will pan out very easily.

NB - in reality, the money HAS to come from somewhere, and it will have to come from tax. What they should have done is just say (in the manifesto) that income tax would go up by 1p. But that wouldn't win votes. The reality is that 'working people' (whatever that means) will be affected, but of course they will because where else will the money come from?

I am always amazed at the number of first time posters who hate Labour!
It also surprises me the number of first time posters who voted Labour but now regret it.
We are still recovering from years of Tories, I'm prepared to wait a bit longer before deciding that Labour are worse than that.

You are wrong.
What's this 'spite' nonsense? Where have you got that from?
They are emphatically not all the same, for the reasons expressed eloquently by several posters already on this thread.

Agree.

It is illogical and shows a lack of critical thinking and common sense to expect a party to come in and reverse 14 years of damage from the last party in a couple of months.

Well me and DH are both self employed so apparently we aren't "working" anyway according to KS!

I think this is what drives me mad.

He isn't straight talking. Working people logically means people who work - until it doesn't.

But then when a PM can't define what a woman is you've got to wonder.

I have no problem with paying higher taxes but I think there is a duty on a government to demonstrate that they are going to spend those taxes responsibly. The NHS would do well to focus on healthcare rather than EDI scheme's which are causing women to have reason to sue NHS trusts.

After 14 years I was hoping for more straight talking no nonsense politics. It's disappointing and bemusing that no one actually knows what he means when he says 'working people'.

Obviously we will have to wait until Wednesday for the specifics.

People will find it hard to defend Reeves on Wednesday.

I am confident about that, but we can circle back then.

You can't expect labour to magically unwind and fix all of the shit the tories have left behind. They need time to make changes and they can't suddenly overnight fix the cost of living crisis.

Oh for pity's sake. You're a couple of days too early OP, can you not have the grace to wait until the budget has been introduced before bringing on the Bucket of Despair? It's very tiresome.

@sweetcup Mine was quite extreme. I basically threw out any preconceptions and misconceptions and ideas I'd been told. For example, you can only be successful if you already come from money/have rich family, women have a ceiling they can earn at, you won't succeed in a bad economy etc.

Basically that it's never the right time for one reason or another or the odds are stacked against you.

You can apply this to anything you've been told you can't do (or told yourself you can't do), not just money/business - e.g. losing weight, moving to another country, do some kind of qualification, changing your career path.

I ignored all the negativity and "what ifs" and started my own business from nothing. It had a massively good impact on my mental health because I didn't have anyone telling me what to do or criticising me or stealing my ideas. And I did that with no business experience, a couple of grand, a house to lose if I couldn't pay the mortgage, and no family to bail me out (my partner also couldn't bail me out because I dragged him into it with me full time from the start!).

I did the things that other people aren't willing to do. Bet on myself. Being absolutely relentless and give up my life for a few years to focus on nothing but the business. Most people will not work hard enough for what they want, and we're conditioned as a society to be worker bees and to stay in that position, placated with half price pizzas and other discounts that have a ceiling, and seeing our income as a finite amount to spend instead of an unlimited potential to earn. I'm not proud that I got a good deal on discount Domino's, I'm proud that I created a business where I could afford a penthouse with a pool in Rome this summer.

You have to start by making a list of what your dream day/life looks like, and then figure out what's different about your current life and fill in the gaps/make the transition. It's not easy. Your brain wants to keep you safe and will resist change. But keeping safe is what keeps you stuck.

I suppose it depends on whether you vote on the basis of "what will they do for me?" or on the basis of "which party will lead to a fairer society?"

Is there a recording available for this morning's zoom?

Obviously taxes benefit everyone overall but I think people were being a bit obtuse, whilst everyone pays tax as a net contributor it’s galling to see just so much of your money disappear. It’s the culture of envy it has always been thus in the UK. My brothers moved to America, now that place has many issues let’s not pretend it’s perfect but they are admired for being successful. Over here people just seem to despise success. The mega wealthy can hide their assets, buy yachts and have them set up as a business and get creative with their accountants. Households like mine take the heat. We can’t evade tax like the mega wealthy.

I agreed with you OP.
We are taxed so heavily - DP in higher tax bracket but we get nothing in return.

Most people will not work hard enough for what they want, and we're conditioned as a society to be worker bees and to stay in that position, placated with half price pizzas ... I'm not proud that I got a good deal on discount Domino's ... Good to see you respect your employees!

@Sweetcup , I feel your frustration and I agree with you. Politically I am fiscally Conservative and socially I’m relatively liberal. Everything I say and everything anyone else says needs to be taken with the understanding that we speak from a politically biased perspective.
I didn’t really engage with politics in a big way until I had a home and a family of my own, up until then I was too busy being young and having a good time and the country at that time 1980’s was doing well and had an optimistic feeling. During this time Margaret Thatcher (Conservative) was PM. Then we had John Major who was a puppet in my opinion and following that Tony Blair (labour) I didn’t notice a difference. Fast forward to more recently and we had David Cameron AKA heir to Blair and the unedifying spectacle of repeated change of party leader culminating in Mr Sunak. Most of these politicians are pretty centrist but lean towards left or right and most people won’t notice much difference. Mrs Thatcher was the last proper Conservative and Mr Corbyn the last socialist leader of the Labour Party. They are the sort of politicians who make changes that have big impacts, widely felt.
It does look like this government is not very friendly to business and that will filter down to employees of course, they don’t seem to be inclined to encourage saving and investing which is good for the individual and for the country. The previous Conservative administration did at least do that.
Im not looking forward to Wednesday because after 40 years self employed my husband and I retired with money invested in stocks, property and ISAs, Ms Reeves will be coming for every one of our income streams. You will notice a difference if you are a public servant, some of them have received and others will likely follow very large pay rises, Labour receives a lot of funding from the trade unions. There is usually an increase in public borrowing with a labour government which can drive up interest rates which in turn discourages investment and slow economic growth and can lead to higher taxes in the future. Potentially for future generations and Conservatives are usually not keen on it for that reason because while it feels good now we are asking our children and grandchildren to shoulder the debt for our good times. What generally happens is that a Labour government borrows and then is eventually replaced by a Conservative government who looks really mean because they have to cut public spending in order to attempt to balance the books.
In a nutshell most people won’t notice much difference and won’t unless the country has in power a government led by someone who is not centrist.

There may not be today, but over time there will be, if only because the Tories cannot do the things they would have done had they been returned to power.

It Makes me laugh that everyone thought Labour would be a new dawn. They do know that the country is still paying off everyone’s furloughs during covid and will be for a long time. Of course there are going to be spending cuts and tax increases. It’s basic common sense, no matter what party gets in.

and the NHS? IMHO no one can fix that. The whole system needs an entire overhaul.

The Conservative Party no longer exists - it chose to become the Brexit Party and has served up a series of lunatic leaders since and looks set to continue to.

They were a disaster in government and had to go.

The brutal reality is taxes have to increase. The demographics of this country have fundamentally shifted - healthcare costs for the over 85’s are ten times higher than that of 18 - 25’s are people are living longer and longer. If we want to continue to have the health and welfare systems we have we are all going to have to pay more.

Do I want to pay more? Of course not. No sensible person does. It’s just economic reality.

CGT being increased, take a look at other countries it’s not that high here. IHT - personally I think we should copy Australia and charge CGT on all transfers on death but British people are obsessed with the idea that they should be able to pass on their house tax free when they die so that wouldn’t work politically. Do I want my pension to be charged to IHT? No. But it wouldn’t be a completely unreasonable suggestion. And obviously until the budget is announced these are just rumours.

I didn’t vote Labour and I’m not convinced by Keir Starmer but to say there’s no difference I don’t think is correct and I don’t think there was any other reasonable option.

I've been told several times to stop moaning.

If they improve NHS you will benefit. If they improve education you will benefit ( if you have children at school). If you have children with SEN and they improve SEN support in education you will benefit.
What kind of promises do you want?

@Hoppinggreen You make very valid points. Sadly the only certainty will be a Labour government will increase taxes, this budget and in the future, services will not improve, public sector workers will get more money for no increase in productivity, unions will weald more power and envy/spite politics will continue.

The problem we have in this country is the "Tories" are too left leaning and have forgot what conservatism is . It was always going to be that Labour claim there are "black holes", it was all the Tories fault.

For people, like yourself, who work hard and do not take much from the state it is going to be hard.

Give it time. We have had so long with austerity measures and mismanagement. We did great under the last Labour government. PFI and the Iraq war aside, things were good for is and I regret voting differently back then on those two issues.

Wanting greater equality and better quality of life for people in lower paid jobs isn’t about envy. That’s an old trope to try and keep the poor poor.

Im fine financially at the moment so I’m not feeling envy or spite. I work with those less privileged and see the struggle. There is no way out of poverty for some no matter how hard they work.

We need the factory workers, delivery drivers, shop keepers, carers so why shouldn’t they be able afford a decent quality of life. There will always be some people who are unable to work. Why wouldn’t we want to look after them? Why wouldn’t you want a fairer society?

We are all only a couple of traumatic life events from possible destitution. Richer doesn’t mean better.

We ALL take from the state. Having emergency services is something every single one of us benefits from. Imagine a world where if you are in an accident you have to get yourself to hospital or if your house is on fire you have to put it out yourself. Or if you are attacked it’s just tough luck. No police or justice system. The security that comes from this invaluable.

IMO due to Corben being so utterly detestable to anyone

Funny thing is, when people were asked to rank policies with the name of the proposer/party removed, they overwhelmingly favoured Corbyn's policies.

The cult of personality and media driven narratives have a lot to answer for imo.