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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Conservatives and Labour - is there really any difference for middle class working families

208 replies

Sweetcup · 28/10/2024 08:14

Please convince me otherwise as I'm feeling utterly depressed.

I really can't see what is on offer to middle class families from either party - it appears to be exactly the same. High taxes, no guarantee of decent state education or access to medical care, horrible driving on roads, criminals out of prison early picked up in luxury cars. Our salaries are worth less than they were 7 years ago.

In principle I don't mind paying high taxes but it really doesn't seem to be a guarantee of anything. Our local state secondary is dreadful as a few (non-working) families seem able to disrupt the education of the rest. As a tax payer I don't feel either the Conservatives or Labour have ever spoken to me directly about what my money is doing and what they are guaranteeing for it.

We cut right back (no Netflix, eating our, no takeout) to put money into our pensions and now I just feel like that means we will have done it to pay for other people's state funded retirements.

OP posts:
Clavinova · 28/10/2024 12:25

Alexandra2001 · 28/10/2024 12:13

But that is a one off scheme, over many years.... the cut in NI has to be covered every year and its index linked to wages.

However, at frst glance seems like a bit of waste, better to reduce emissions in the first place... via using less fosil fuels.

Doctors pay rise? its about 1.5 billion per year (net after extra tax & ni taken) a lot of money but how much was an on-going strike going to cost?

Not great if can't go back to work because your op is cancelled.

Edited

Have hospital waiting lists gone down yet? Boat arrivals have gone up I see and the government are opening more asylum hotels. Rachel Reeves could save a quick £5/£6 billion on the overseas climate aid pledge due next year.

MidnightPatrol · 28/10/2024 12:31

@thepariscrimefiles yes, and the value of that childcare is massive - and growing, given the extra free hours from 9 months, which will rise to 30 hours from 9 months in 2025.

I need to earn tens of thousands of pounds extra a year just to cover that loss.

It’s ridiculous. And encouraging people to go part time to try and stay under it because the loss is so massive - which is completely stupid.

valueyourself · 28/10/2024 12:34

I can't see why people are finding this so hard to work out . !

The fucking grifting Tories have spent FOURTEEN YEARS, passing off private contracts to their mates for no or very little return whilst SYSTEMATICALLY dismantling public services. Which should be of no surprise to anyone who voted for them as it is a fundamental belief of conservative values.

Now God knows how many wingers are on here expecting everything to be fixed before the new government have even had a fucking budget .. yet somehow expect this to happen by then production of a magic money tree.

Sorry to disappoint everyone, but if you want functional hospitals, social housing, a long term care plan . Then it needs to be paid for through tax.

I do want those things and am happy to pay higher tax to have them.

Morph22010 · 28/10/2024 12:35

MidnightPatrol · 28/10/2024 12:31

@thepariscrimefiles yes, and the value of that childcare is massive - and growing, given the extra free hours from 9 months, which will rise to 30 hours from 9 months in 2025.

I need to earn tens of thousands of pounds extra a year just to cover that loss.

It’s ridiculous. And encouraging people to go part time to try and stay under it because the loss is so massive - which is completely stupid.

Edited

I think the main issue it’s a cliff edge, so you can go a few pounds over becuase you miscalculate a benefit in kind and you lose all. It would be better if it were tapered

MidnightPatrol · 28/10/2024 12:39

@Morph22010 a taper would be better than the cliff-edge I agree.

Even then though… it’s a cost of going to work, a business expense really. Not being given any tax relief on it at all seems very severe.

Particularly given most of those having the benefit removed will be living in very HCOL areas where childcare costs are insanely high too.

You’re comfortably looking at £4,000 a month for two inc. 15 free hours at 3 here now. That’s still cripplingly high.

And - if the second earner earns less than about £75k, you’re losing money each month by their working.

It’s a crap policy that’s made more crap by its lazy application.

thepariscrimefiles · 28/10/2024 12:47

MidnightPatrol · 28/10/2024 12:39

@Morph22010 a taper would be better than the cliff-edge I agree.

Even then though… it’s a cost of going to work, a business expense really. Not being given any tax relief on it at all seems very severe.

Particularly given most of those having the benefit removed will be living in very HCOL areas where childcare costs are insanely high too.

You’re comfortably looking at £4,000 a month for two inc. 15 free hours at 3 here now. That’s still cripplingly high.

And - if the second earner earns less than about £75k, you’re losing money each month by their working.

It’s a crap policy that’s made more crap by its lazy application.

But it was a Conservative government policy. You may be angry if the Labour government doesn't reverse or mitigate this in the budget, but it isn't something they implemented in the first place. A number of benefits brought in by Labour governments to be universal irrespective of income, e.g. child benefit were amended by Conservation governments since 2010. Therefore, I think your sense of betrayal is misplaced.

EasternStandard · 28/10/2024 13:05

valueyourself · 28/10/2024 12:34

I can't see why people are finding this so hard to work out . !

The fucking grifting Tories have spent FOURTEEN YEARS, passing off private contracts to their mates for no or very little return whilst SYSTEMATICALLY dismantling public services. Which should be of no surprise to anyone who voted for them as it is a fundamental belief of conservative values.

Now God knows how many wingers are on here expecting everything to be fixed before the new government have even had a fucking budget .. yet somehow expect this to happen by then production of a magic money tree.

Sorry to disappoint everyone, but if you want functional hospitals, social housing, a long term care plan . Then it needs to be paid for through tax.

I do want those things and am happy to pay higher tax to have them.

I doubt Labour thought it was a winning line hence selling in ‘fully funded, fully costed’ and now it’s all pain and fiscal reality doom

It’s great you want to pay more though, which of the taxes that you pay do you want to go up?

MidnightPatrol · 28/10/2024 13:08

@thepariscrimefiles Im not angry at Labour nor feel ‘betrayed’ by them.

Im annoyed by all of them. As per the initial OP.

None of them will do anything to change the above regardless of how absurd and limiting it is for growth.

If anything, what we will see is more and more people in the same boat as inflation drives wages higher and more people end up in that camp - alongside the growth in childcare support for everyone else.

ethelredonagoodday · 28/10/2024 13:15

I think @Tiedyesquad had it right!

Genevieva · 28/10/2024 13:40

I agree with you. A new set of incompetent sailors in the same sinking ship doesn’t change anything. They are still intent on the same uncompetitive and economy-shrinking course.

Jeremy Hunt increased taxes to the highest level in our peacetime history. And, last time taxes were this high, the thresholds were set sufficiently high that ordinary working class voters paid almost no income tax. The freezing of income tax thresholds relative to inflation has dragged people in moderately paid professions like classroom teaching into the higher tax bracket. On top of a gross salary that is subject to 20% basic rate of income tax, the government receives employer NI of 13.8% plus employee NI of 8%, giving a basic rate taxpayer a marginal tax rate of 41.8%, which is high. Increasing employer NI will make employing people more expensive and suppress wages.

Furthermore, Jeremy Hunt increased corporation tax to 24%. This is amongst the highest in Europe. Higher than Sweden and Denmark (known as high tax economies) and double Ireland’s. Combined with the above, this makes doing business here inordinately expensive. The largest contributor to our economy is the financial services industry, which is highly mobile, so we risk eviscerating our tax base if we are not competitive.

Meanwhile, we have created one of the most expensive welfare states in the world. 20% of adolescents receive DLA. 18% of working age adults receive PIP. For every successful recipient of PIP, 1.5 people have claimed and failed. In effect, half the working age population have deemed it worthwhile applying to receive DLA. So, on the one hand we have the highest life expectancy, best access to healthcare and greatest range of employment opportunities and technological aids in our history, making it easier than ever before to find suitable employment. On the other hand, perceived disability is at a record high, with half the population of Britain thinking they are so disabled that their neighbours should pay them a monetary allowance through the tax system. PIP alone cost the taxpayer £20 billion a year. DLA costs a similar amount. This is projected to rise to a combined £58 billion in the next three to four years.

54% of households are net beneficiaries of the state, meaning they receive more in benefits than they pay in tax. The average taxpayer earns c.£36,000 a year and pays c.£4,600 income tax, so it takes all of the income tax of almost 9 million average taxpayers to cover just the PIP and DLA elements of the welfare bill. Then there are all the many benefits that are paid to ordinary families, some of which are called tax credits, despite having no relationship to tax paid. these have enabled multinational corporations to suppress wages at the low end and pay their executive excessively.

The total cost of the welfare state is in excess of £240 billion or £6,500 per taxpayer (significantly more than the average taxpayer pays). It’s totally unsustainable, but successive governments have found it easier to increase taxes than do the painful job of cutting unnecessary civil service jobs and welfare benefits to sustainable levels. We are now so far past the sweet spot on the Lather curve that more tax rises will probably reduce total tax revenue, so the government are in a Catch 22 mess of their own making.

Sweetcup · 28/10/2024 14:04

Genevieva · 28/10/2024 13:40

I agree with you. A new set of incompetent sailors in the same sinking ship doesn’t change anything. They are still intent on the same uncompetitive and economy-shrinking course.

Jeremy Hunt increased taxes to the highest level in our peacetime history. And, last time taxes were this high, the thresholds were set sufficiently high that ordinary working class voters paid almost no income tax. The freezing of income tax thresholds relative to inflation has dragged people in moderately paid professions like classroom teaching into the higher tax bracket. On top of a gross salary that is subject to 20% basic rate of income tax, the government receives employer NI of 13.8% plus employee NI of 8%, giving a basic rate taxpayer a marginal tax rate of 41.8%, which is high. Increasing employer NI will make employing people more expensive and suppress wages.

Furthermore, Jeremy Hunt increased corporation tax to 24%. This is amongst the highest in Europe. Higher than Sweden and Denmark (known as high tax economies) and double Ireland’s. Combined with the above, this makes doing business here inordinately expensive. The largest contributor to our economy is the financial services industry, which is highly mobile, so we risk eviscerating our tax base if we are not competitive.

Meanwhile, we have created one of the most expensive welfare states in the world. 20% of adolescents receive DLA. 18% of working age adults receive PIP. For every successful recipient of PIP, 1.5 people have claimed and failed. In effect, half the working age population have deemed it worthwhile applying to receive DLA. So, on the one hand we have the highest life expectancy, best access to healthcare and greatest range of employment opportunities and technological aids in our history, making it easier than ever before to find suitable employment. On the other hand, perceived disability is at a record high, with half the population of Britain thinking they are so disabled that their neighbours should pay them a monetary allowance through the tax system. PIP alone cost the taxpayer £20 billion a year. DLA costs a similar amount. This is projected to rise to a combined £58 billion in the next three to four years.

54% of households are net beneficiaries of the state, meaning they receive more in benefits than they pay in tax. The average taxpayer earns c.£36,000 a year and pays c.£4,600 income tax, so it takes all of the income tax of almost 9 million average taxpayers to cover just the PIP and DLA elements of the welfare bill. Then there are all the many benefits that are paid to ordinary families, some of which are called tax credits, despite having no relationship to tax paid. these have enabled multinational corporations to suppress wages at the low end and pay their executive excessively.

The total cost of the welfare state is in excess of £240 billion or £6,500 per taxpayer (significantly more than the average taxpayer pays). It’s totally unsustainable, but successive governments have found it easier to increase taxes than do the painful job of cutting unnecessary civil service jobs and welfare benefits to sustainable levels. We are now so far past the sweet spot on the Lather curve that more tax rises will probably reduce total tax revenue, so the government are in a Catch 22 mess of their own making.

@Genevieva

20% of adolescents receive DLA. 18% of working age adults receive PIP. For every successful recipient of PIP, 1.5 people have claimed and failed

This is so depressing and dreadful for society.

OP posts:
ForMintUser · 28/10/2024 14:11

Anthony Scaramucci

Apologies if the link doesn’t work but just saw this and it seems relevant to this conversation.

Although I will also say I think the OP meant paying more taxes for fewer/worse services rather than not wanting to pay tax at all.

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DBq5EccOxFa/?igsh=b3Y5NDA3MWdzc3pr

Morph22010 · 28/10/2024 14:12

Sweetcup · 28/10/2024 14:04

@Genevieva

20% of adolescents receive DLA. 18% of working age adults receive PIP. For every successful recipient of PIP, 1.5 people have claimed and failed

This is so depressing and dreadful for society.

I have heard it mooted that there may be changes to dla in the budget or beyond due to the high level of claims, particularly around the interaction with universal credit. The trouble with dla is that it is a gateway benefit so people need to claim it for their child to be entitled to other things that may be useful. So for example we go to an Sen swim session and you have to show dla or blue badge as proof. These sort of sessions are invaluable to us as we couldn’t go to a usual session. We don’t particularly need the money from the dla at the minute as we can both work full time (opposite shifts to accommodate ds round school).

Genevieva · 28/10/2024 14:13

Sweetcup · 28/10/2024 14:04

@Genevieva

20% of adolescents receive DLA. 18% of working age adults receive PIP. For every successful recipient of PIP, 1.5 people have claimed and failed

This is so depressing and dreadful for society.

Re. DLA I do wonder if the rise of factory schooling has a lot to do with it. I’ve worked with so many kids with ADHD, especially boys, who have a history of being disciplined and excluded from school, but who can demonstrate incredible competence, concentration, resilience, care and leadership skills when you get them outside and engaged in hands-on learning.

EasternStandard · 28/10/2024 14:15

Headline on bus fares going up. How that creates a greener fairer place who knows. It'll hit people on lower incomes harder

midgetastic · 28/10/2024 14:16

Bus companies are private around here

lifeturnsonadime · 28/10/2024 14:19

EasternStandard · 28/10/2024 14:15

Headline on bus fares going up. How that creates a greener fairer place who knows. It'll hit people on lower incomes harder

You see this is the one I don't get.

It would be a win to reduce public transport costs -

  • environmental benefits
  • keeps the country fitter
  • cheap transport gets more people mobile/ out to work.

I know that public transport was privatised under Tory policy but if we truly want change this and better childcare (for all) are no brainers.

Sweetcup · 28/10/2024 14:21

MidnightPatrol · 28/10/2024 13:08

@thepariscrimefiles Im not angry at Labour nor feel ‘betrayed’ by them.

Im annoyed by all of them. As per the initial OP.

None of them will do anything to change the above regardless of how absurd and limiting it is for growth.

If anything, what we will see is more and more people in the same boat as inflation drives wages higher and more people end up in that camp - alongside the growth in childcare support for everyone else.

The childcare cutoff is absurd. The people who are effectively funding the policy have less choice. Friends have had to pick the cheapest childcare available as don't get the free hours.

OP posts:
Bushmillsbabe · 28/10/2024 14:24

Morph22010 · 28/10/2024 14:12

I have heard it mooted that there may be changes to dla in the budget or beyond due to the high level of claims, particularly around the interaction with universal credit. The trouble with dla is that it is a gateway benefit so people need to claim it for their child to be entitled to other things that may be useful. So for example we go to an Sen swim session and you have to show dla or blue badge as proof. These sort of sessions are invaluable to us as we couldn’t go to a usual session. We don’t particularly need the money from the dla at the minute as we can both work full time (opposite shifts to accommodate ds round school).

This is a really valid point.
I claim PIP (and work in a professional role), not because we desperately need the money, but because it gives access to carers passes, fast track at theme parks and other adjustments which I wouldn't get without it.
Families I work with who claim DLA, sometimes claim it just to get a motability accessible vehicle, as the cost of these to purchase privately is prohibitively expensive, but there isn't a way to get an accessible vehicle without claiming DLA. And also to access certain adjustments which require DLA to get them.
There should be a nationally recognised proof of disability beyond the Access card, which gives people with disabilities access to adjustments without claiming benefits.
There is also definitely abuse on the system, but these are in the minority and shouldn't be used as a reason to deny them to those who really need them.

Sweetcup · 28/10/2024 14:26

Genevieva · 28/10/2024 14:13

Re. DLA I do wonder if the rise of factory schooling has a lot to do with it. I’ve worked with so many kids with ADHD, especially boys, who have a history of being disciplined and excluded from school, but who can demonstrate incredible competence, concentration, resilience, care and leadership skills when you get them outside and engaged in hands-on learning.

You are completely right and a change to provision would be sensible. If we are raising taxes it should be with problem solving solutions like you have above - perhaps with more stringent rules around DLA attached.

OP posts:
Genevieva · 28/10/2024 14:28

Morph22010 · 28/10/2024 14:12

I have heard it mooted that there may be changes to dla in the budget or beyond due to the high level of claims, particularly around the interaction with universal credit. The trouble with dla is that it is a gateway benefit so people need to claim it for their child to be entitled to other things that may be useful. So for example we go to an Sen swim session and you have to show dla or blue badge as proof. These sort of sessions are invaluable to us as we couldn’t go to a usual session. We don’t particularly need the money from the dla at the minute as we can both work full time (opposite shifts to accommodate ds round school).

I agree. It’s no criticism if recipients. One of my godsons receives it. He has severe ADHD and high functioning autism. I love him, but he is truly exhausting. His parents don’t really need DLA, but they needed it to access other support, including pushing for an EHCP. They are on the middle level of DLA, which surprised them, but not me, based on my professional experience.

Cyclingmummy1 · 28/10/2024 14:32

JustAnotherPoster00 · 28/10/2024 08:54

I'm also here in Wales enjoying my free prescriptions but on a more serious note why do a certain demographic of people (right leaning reform/tory voters, mainly english incomers) think Wales are failing because if they where people would vote them out and they haven't for as long as the Senedd has been around, so for the most part Labour are doing a good job here in Wales what does need looking at is the Barnett formula, my country having had its resources stolen by the English for centuries should be redressed in the formula and not kept at the pittance level it is

Can you explain why the Barnett formula disadvantages Wales please?

BlueLimeRun · 28/10/2024 14:45

I agree OP. Labour despise people who do well.

thepariscrimefiles · 28/10/2024 15:04

lifeturnsonadime · 28/10/2024 14:19

You see this is the one I don't get.

It would be a win to reduce public transport costs -

  • environmental benefits
  • keeps the country fitter
  • cheap transport gets more people mobile/ out to work.

I know that public transport was privatised under Tory policy but if we truly want change this and better childcare (for all) are no brainers.

I don't understand it either. Surely they want to encourage people to use public transport? Why would they introduce a policy that makes it less likely that people will choose to take a bus instead of getting in the car.

Most people think that only poor people and elderly people use buses and usually services that are only used by the poor are poor services. I was hoping that they would massively invest in the bus network, getting people out of their cars. This is disappointing.

Morph22010 · 28/10/2024 15:05

Genevieva · 28/10/2024 14:28

I agree. It’s no criticism if recipients. One of my godsons receives it. He has severe ADHD and high functioning autism. I love him, but he is truly exhausting. His parents don’t really need DLA, but they needed it to access other support, including pushing for an EHCP. They are on the middle level of DLA, which surprised them, but not me, based on my professional experience.

We get middle rate care and lower rate mobility so it’s about £400 a month, not a small amount!, my son does have an ehcp and is in a specialist school and he can be quite hard work but as becuase we only have the one child we’ve managed to set up our work so one has early start early finish and one has late start late finish so we can both work full time. I would actually prefer more support with managing him/ more support in holidays etc rather than the money if I’m honest