Difficult situation with sister and nephew

[Sunshineandalltherainbows]

I feel really bad even writing this but I am finding my 4 year old nephew absolutely impossible to be around. His behaviour is poor. My sister must be struggling, says she isn't and it's all normal boy behaviour bit it's not. She often will say he's only 4. When he was she used to say he's only 3.

It's having a huge impact on my family's relationship with her.

For example, it was my son's birthday (who has asd) and we were all eating birthday cake round my parents. My nephew grabbed my son's cake of his plate put it in his mouth and then spat it out on my son's plate. I said that's disgusting don't ever do that again. My son was in tears about it as he hates any form of contamination if his stuff. My sister then said I was wrong to say anything to nephew as he's only 4 and it was only a problem because my son's autism. I'm not being funny but anyone regards of needs would have been bothered about that happening to their food.

We've now been asked about Christmas plans and I just don't want to be around my sister and nephew. He constantly breaks things on purpose and laughs, hits everyone, shouts and screams when told no by parents as my sister never says no.

My parents are struggling too as they don't like their things getting broken.

If I ever mention anything to my sister about his behaviour she becomes extremely defensive but I just can't stand their company at the moment and I feel terrible for saying that. Not sure what to do further but limiting contact seems for the best at the moment.

@Sunshineandalltherainbows

Oh for Heaven's sake, this is NOT 'normal' behaviour for a 4 year old! I raised 2 boys plus have scads of nephews and NONE of them behaved like that, not even at 3 years old. They weren't perfect, but they didn't go round breaking things on purpose nor spitting food on someone else's plate!

Listen, there is nothing you can do about your nephew's behaviour except to not be around it. But I certainly wouldn't keep quiet about it, either. There is nothing wrong with inviting your parents to your house for Xmas breakfast to avoid your own children being upset by him, but I wouldn't be 'hush hush' about it. I wouldn't trumpet it, but I wouldn't hide it either. If DSis were to ask I'd tell her that you are tired of her son's behaviour and having your DC upset and their belongings destroyed, therefore you have decided to wait until she decides that he's 'old enough' not to behave so badly.

Sorry OP but your sister and her DP are complete idiots if they are rewarding and encouraging their son’s awful behaviour with positive reinforcement- laughing and celebrating it by filming and sharing. No wonder he keeps doing it.

Even if you get through to her it sounds like her DP is a cretin, teaching a 4yo to repeat violent threats.

You tried to speak to her but she got defensive so your instincts to avoid her sound sensible. Invite your mum and dad out for coffee, lunch etc instead of going round there. And yes, the plan for the breakfast on Christmas Day with your parents sounds ideal. Stay strong!

//Sounds like your sister isn't coping but if she doesn't address things soon he's not going to be invited anywhere.//

Sounds more like the sister can't be bothered to 'cope', she'll probably be making excuses for him, 'he's only 16, 21,35' for the rest of his life. Unfortunately others will not be as indulgent of his brattish behaviour, if he had spat food out in my house he would have been sent out of the room, with or without his couldn't-care-less mother and he certainly wouldn't becoming to my home at Christmas unless she gets off her derriere and addresses the problem.

I don't think my BIL is abusive. I think he is an idiot. We are different families but that's ok. He loves oasis, boxing lad culture stuff and doesn't believe in education in the same way I do. He works hard and gets a decent wage from putting in the hours.

I think he wants my nephew to be a little mini lad for the camera. Like videoing him saying stuff, or singing wonderwall with sunglasses on type stuff. Not my scene but it doesn't mean he's violent. If I thought for even a slight second he was I'd be doing something as would my parents.

Nephew prefers not to be looked after by myself and my dad and prefers to be with my mum if he isn't with my sister.

Hardly surprising if the others don't pull him up on his behaviour. He will find school challenging then.

Protect your child from this nonsense.
limit contact.

Exactly and it sounds as though the parents will be constantly at school complaining that their little precious was upset when some horrible teacher had the temerity to tell him off.
Teachers are not there to replace lazy parents but sadly are expected to wipe their bums because no-one can be bothered to toilet train them, teach them to use cutlery and so on.

I don’t think anyone can say that the nephew is ND at this point, because he doesn’t have any boundaries imposed around his behaviour. If the parents were trying to create some and he was resisting them, that would be one thing, but this is completely different because the parents aren’t doing that- the kid is allowed to do whatever he wants and his parents laugh or laugh it off. Until or unless they actively try to work on these destructive/aggressive/unpleasant behaviours, no-one will know how he reacts against boundaries.

This is a nightmare, this kid needs boundaries and he needs them asap. 4 is old enough to know better and not grab someone else's food and spit it out! Is she going to be saying "he's only..." for ever "oh he punched a man in a pub, aw well he's only 18 can't be helped"

I don't know what to suggest but I would be limiting time with them for sure and definitly not seeing them at Christmas. Whether you tell them why is up to you! Feel sorry for the Grandparents too if they are constantly round.

I could understand the cake incident if the child was 2 but even by 2.5 children have a decent sense of right and wrong.

Even at 2 or 2.5 a decent, caring parent would not have sat back and ignored it, much less made light of it, the norm would be to stop the offending child and tell him the say Sorry, even if he doesn't know what it means. Social training should be starting once a child is mobile and verbal.

I could have written this and we are further down the road to you. My DSIS is exactly the same with my nephew. He is diagnosed with ADHD and her excuse for not parenting is because of this. When he goes round people's houses he breaks things, goes through drawers and cupboards pulling stuff out. Goes into rooms he's been told not to and she does nothing. He and my youngest are both 8. My oldest is 10. He is violent towards my youngest but not the oldest. Outside he breaks things, in playgrounds takes stuff of other kids and breaks it and throws it away. She does nothing but says "aww but he can't help it". I've tried to talk to her but she gets defensive. Thing is she won't accept it if another child does similar to hers. We no longer invite them over, we limit context to maybe once a month now because my kids dread being with him.

This is OPs sister and nephew and OP cares about her family clearly from the posts she's written. It isn't helpful for her getting these riled up posts about her family.

Thinking on it, I wonder if your sister would ever be open to just going for a catch up - a drink , a coffee or something just the 2 of you OP See how it goes and what comes up in discussion. Appreciate you may have no desire or capacity for that.

It's not for you to fix all this of course. It sounds like family mean alot to you and you can at least know you've done all you can your end.

If she sees nothing wrong that's up to her. Everyone has tried. She has right but not much responsibility as a parent.
Next she faces the consequences of her choices. You are allowed to avoid and do things separately. In school there will be consequences with staff, learning and socially with peers.
She's made her decision .You have the right to make yours too.

"He's only 4" - at what age does she think he will spontaneously stop acting like some sort of wild animal 🤔

My neighbour's kid is exactly the same and she "parented" him the same way as your sister did. Guess what's happening at school now he's 14? He's getting the shit kicked out of him by much older boys because he doesn't understand boundaries.

He's constantly being suspended from school & probably won't be long before he's in trouble with the law. My neighbour swore blind it was everyone else's fault until the day he also beat the shit out of her.

Now she's too frightened to have him at home so he's staying at his dad's. A completely avoidable situation if she had only parented him properly.

Not to worry you but my DS was in primary school with a boy with quite severe behavioural problems. He was destructive, spiteful and a bully. His parents wouldn't have it. He was just being a boy apparently. He went to a behavioural unit several times but his parents wouldn't discipline him. He is now an adult and in prison.

He was clearly jealous of your DS' attention and so had to ruin it. He's breaking things for attention. If his parents do not sort this out now his life is going to be hard. We all have to live with each other and his behaviour will not be tolerated outside the family.

I'd put my DS first and have nothing to do with her son.

I work with children from 2 to nearly 5 years old. I can assure you that grabbing food from another child's plate and then spitting it back on is most certainly out of place for even a 2 year old. I am horrified that you would consider this normal.

@Ozanj “He’s 4. Nothing you’ve described is out of place for a 4 yo who hasn’t started school yet”
What planet are you on? A 4 year old child is old enough to know right from wrong. This child smiles when he gets his own way, smiles when he deliberately breaks things, as he knows his mummy will always take his side. There are no punishments, or even apologies, for his dreadful behaviour. All that’s ever said is “he’s just 4” and his cousins are blamed for overreacting, when he deliberately destroys their belongings and grabs their food before just spitting it out.

This is not normal, he’s just 4, behaviour. It is absolutely disgraceful that you are trying to turn the blame on the OP and telling her that she “should manage your DC’s ASD in an appropriate way”!
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@Sunshineandalltherainbows I think you are definitely doing the right thing, distancing your family from being in the same space as this awful little boy and his equally awful mum.

Your sister, if she doesn’t change her attitude soon, will find that no one wants to socialise with her and her ‘d’ son. The fact that you are now distancing your family from them, should be enough to set the alarm bells ringing for her.

It’s really really likely that he has additional needs.

One in ten children who have a cousin with adhd will themselves have adhd.

I appreciate that your son’s diagnosis is autism but as I’m sure you know the two diagnosis have a lot of overlap, and children with one neurodiversity often have a second.

If she’s not ready to discuss it with you, it might be worth seeing whether you could get her to check with nursery if they have any concerns about whether he’s ready for school?

My son has adhd and, the one thing I would have done differently as a parent if I had known earlier, is that I would have delayed his school start by a year.

The notion that we should never tell another child in our own homes that they are behaving badly is ludicrous.

I would (and have) put up with a lot for a child struggling to learn behaviour and social skills where their parents are really working to help them develop. I will put up with sod all for an obnoxiously behaved child whose parents encourage that behaviour and who cause my own family distress.

Make your own arrangements with your DP, keep well clear of DS family and if asked then tell them why. Your DP have to make their own decisions. If your DP and you both have tried to talk to your sister/BiL and they don't want to know and continue to excuse and encourage this behaviour then you can only shield your own family from the consequences.

Your sister and dickish BiL have opted out of parenting, undermine any attempt to tell the child if he is wrong and are leaving the rest of the world to deal with the consequences. The DC whose parents were like this when mine were young became the largely unemployable under achievers in adulthood. Frankly its a form of child abuse.

Whaaaaat?! I only know one kid who would have done this at 4 and at 8 he’s an absolute nightmare- asked to leave sports clubs, always in trouble at school, incredibly unpopular, family pretty alienated by other school families; it’s really not normal 4 year conduct.

There's a great deal of SEN parents on these MN boards. Over time, it becomes quickly apparent where we're reading about a child we've encountered or may have. There are lots of signs that people with NT child really would never understand. That's no criticism. I wouldn't have believed it either.

Even the way the boy laughs at things as described. Many of these kids do that, it can actually be a complete inability to understand what is an appropriate response so they laugh at awful things. Because the behaviour is so triggering and unlikeable, it makes people mad inside and your default is to go to ripping the parent a new one or thinking the kids a psychopath.

The mum is in denial. The dads rewarding irritating behaviour so it's magnified in the boy here.

Whoever flagged PDA, yes definitely see that here. Most don't even know what it is. It comes with Autism.

Anyway, it's going nowhere if the mum isn't on board and can't yet see it from another point of view so OP is pretty powerless.

However, her understanding ref what's really happening here might just mean that she's there down the line to support her sister and nephew when the times right.

Of course you should not put up with an unparented child
Put your own family first. Otherwise your children will dread their Christmas. If your sister complains then its the first step to trying to get her to recognise her problem parenting.

@Biscuitsneeded

Did you find the shoe?

I would steer clear tbh. I know she's your sister and he is your nephew, but you need to protect and advocate for your child. If being around your nephew is unpleasant and stressful for you, it must be ten times as bad for your son. Sadly the only way your sister will learn is when your nephew finds himself lonely - parents don't tolerate that crap from other people's/unrelated kids. Its sad, but if things don't change, he will be the one who isn't invited back to parties or playdates, and then your sister will have to parent him. I wouldn't spend Christmas with them, maybe see them before or after, but why let him spoil your kids Christmas day. You have your own family to consider first and foremost.