To think my friendship will need to end due to Israel/Palestine?

[VioletW]

I've been close friends with a Jewish woman for ten years. We went on lots of trips together, lived in two different countries at the same times, been there for each other through all sorts.

Anyway since she moved I see her once or twice a year, the second time usually being Christmas. She always looks me up at Christmas and I'm anticipating the same this year.

My position is that I disagree with the October 8 attacks and also what's happening in Gaza is horrific. I've been to demonstrations about this, even bumping into two other Jewish friends at these.

I've seen my friend posting online that these demos are 'Anti Israel'. All of her posts are in support of fighting anti semitism and she has never posted about Palestine, although she works for a humanitarian organisation. AIBU to think this simply ends the friendship?

I know that parents who send their children to Jewish schools are being asked to pay around £2000 a year for security. I know many of my friends were too scared to go to synagogue recently on the high holidays. I know when I went to synagogue, there were around 50 security officers present including met police.

FYI, Im surprised you had to pay out of pocket for security when the Jewish community is the only ethnic minority/religious group that has its own police force - the CST - funded and paid for by the taxpayer. They were paid £72 million this year and the priority is Jewish schools. You should look into this:

The commercial security guards supplement the physical security measures that CST’s own charitable funds have helped put in place at each location.
The government grant specifies that Jewish schools are the priority recipients for this funding.

cst.org.uk/security/government-grant

And by the way, the hypocrisy is not lost on me and hopefully many others - the friend is within her rights to only be concerned with antisemitism to the exclusion of a genocide being carried out in her name, but we are not to discuss the genocide of Palestine without proving that we care about other injustices around the world.

Which is it?

Oh this is in addition to the phenomenal vital support from CST.

CST do not provide the routine security Jewish schools require, but enhance provision during times of specific threat.

Oh and btw that article says it was a £15 million grant.

your facts in all your posts seem to be wholly inaccurate.

You do realise that if every synagogue, nursery, old age home, school, higher education setting etc require 50 plus security guards, £15 million is going to touch the surface. Oh and multiple high force entry security gates. The costs of our security in the UK (due to the ongoing specific threats of intent of terror attacks) are astronomical, with huge private donations from the community.

Oh thanks for pointing that out, source here:

The £54 million of new funding announced today is the biggest single financial commitment any government has made to protect Jewish communities. It comes on top of the £18 million already given to CST for 2024 to 2025 and will mean the organisation's crucial work is funded until 2028

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/record-funding-will-protect-jewish-communities-from-harm#:~:text=The%20£54%20million%20of,work%20is%20funded%20until%202028.

I do agree that all places of worship, schools, old age home if they are under threat of attack should have security, I just wanted to point out to the pp that every parent in a school being charged £2000 for security when there is already significant funding from the government specifically for Jewish communities, doesn’t sound right to me, and she should encourage her friend to question that with the school. It was an aside to the main point of the post.

What other facts don’t tally? I posted all my sources. I can find post more evidence from credible sources such as the U.N., Amnesty, ICJ etc etc if you like?

Flaking off pro Israelis in your life at this point in time is also a moral imperative.

Lets think this statement through to it’s logical conclusion.

When you say “pro Israelis”, what do you actually mean? Do you mean people who believe the Israeli state has a moral and legal right to exist? I’m sure you will come back with some weasel words about some Jews are OK (the ones which go on the marches).

You realise that the overwhelming majority of Jews in this country (and others) believe Israel has a right to exist?

So you are actually basically saying it’s a moral imperative to “flake off” Jews and non Jews who support the Jewish right to statehood.

Well I am as disgusted as you are by the atrocities of the IDF and some of the disturbing elements in the Israeli government. I’m also horrified at what’s currently happening in Lebanon.

But I am fucked if I am going to be told I have an obligation to sever ties with people who support the right of the Jewish people to statehood.

It’s attitudes like this which mean many of my Jewish friends are actually frightened in the UK at the moment.

Can you explain a bit more about this:

'If you want to look at a genocide maybe look at the populations of Jews across the middle east 40 years ago and what those populations look like now.'

40 years ago was 1984. Are you saying that there has been a genocide of Jews across the middle east since 1984?

I am aware that after the formation of Israel in 1948, many neighbouring countries expelled their Jewish population to the point where today there are hardly any Jews living in other countries in the Middle East. But you seem to be saying that Jews have been killed in the last 40 years in numbers so large that it could be termed a genocide. Could you please provide further information on this?

Weasel words 😂 putting words in my mouth? Who mentioned statehood or the right to exist?

In this context it should be obvious but let me be clear - I am saying anyone who supports the current Israeli govt and army actions in Gaza and Lebanon should be flaked off as immoral and unworthy of friendship or any other relationship.

The right of a Jewish state to exist is not the topic at hand, the OP does not have issues with her friend because she believes Israel should exist.

But since we are on the topic, answer me this - does any state have a right to exist? Countries come and go, regimes come and go.

If one such regime is practicing a form of violent and brutal apartheid - South Africa being a case in point, did it have a right to continue as it was? South Africa still exists, the people remain and live, but no one would argue the apartheid regime had a right to exist.

PEOPLE, HUMANS have a right to exist, a right to life, a right to safety, a right to have security for their children and to live free of persecution and oppression. No ONE and NO STATE has the right to try and achieve this for their own citizens by the subjugation, displacement and genocide of an indigenous people.

Do you think south Africa should have been allowed to continue as they were - because their right to exist as an apartheid state trumped the right of human beings to live free of oppression and persecution? Or do you think it’s a good thing that the world intervened. That people spoke out. That people opposed that regime until it crumbled and was replaced.

2023 was the deadliest year on record for Palestinian children, and Gaza was being bombed in Sept 2023. It’s not a problem that started on 7 Oct. It needs to be addressed.

Back on topic, when you choose your friends, choose accordingly with what resonates with your own beliefs as to who has the right to life and to live in safety, and who doesn’t. To be clear, apartheid regimes have no right to exist but all human beings have a right to exist.

I used to go to demonstrations in support of Palestine, for over 20 years. There didn't used to be continual anti-semitism at them. However it has crept in and in the last year every one I've seen has absolutely had quite a lot of anti-semitism. And been really quite pro-Hamas. I support Palestinian people being free to live good lives but that will never be under Hamas. They are just as, if not more, the cause of death and misery of Palestinian people than Israel. (Though obviously Likud helped form them to undermine Fatah.) But right now, anyone at those demonstrations is not helping the Palestinian people, what they are calling for will only prolong the constant on-off war that will bring death to both sides. As a supporter of the Palestinian people, I will never attend a pro-Hamas rally.

Outside of that, I was something of a full time activist 20+ years ago. I've no doubt I was utterly insufferable a lot of the time. But I was never, ever so arrogant as to end a friendship because of political differences. And that was even back when I was young enough that my brain hadn't fully developed. I was frustrated by their lack of my belief but I still on some level knew that people were allowed believe different things and learned not to argue about it. We've gone very, very wrong as a society if actual grown ups can't understand that. It's full on political totalitarianism to think your friend can't have a different opinion to you.

@Chillichutney1

Who mentioned statehood or the right to exist?

You did. You said it was a “moral imperative” to “flake off” pro Israelis.

when you choose your friends, choose accordingly with what resonates with your own beliefs as to who has the right to life and to live in safety, and who doesn’t

So basically, don’t choose Jews as friends is what you’re saying.

I don’t need you to choose friends for me thanks.

Apologies that needs to be restated. Not pro Israelis, pro Israeli govt and army actions in Gaza and Lebanon, my bad. Flake em off. Someone like that is morally rotten, no matter how they present in everyday life.

I sympathise with your friends because most of those demonstrations are pro hamas and anti semitic. And the people attending them don't give a shit about wars in other parts of the world because they like to shout and scream at Jews.

As I said in an earlier post - total and complete solidarity with Jews who stand up against this genocidal Israeli regime, and probably against their own community and family and friends. Complete and utter respect for the sacrifice they make.

They don’t need to care about other wars, just as Jews don’t need to care about anything but antisemitism. It’s a perogative. But expect to be judged on that, just as you judge people who attend these pro-Palestinian protests. And you are right to.

Are you really going to invoke the Nazis in defence of anti-semitism? I guess it makes sense, but not in the way you think it does. The people behaving like Nazis here are those with politically totalitarian beliefs. You are not in anyway defending the Palestinian people by supporting Hamas.

no @Chillichutney1 watching the recent demonstration in our local city, it was clearly a rampant party of antisemitism and pro hamas sympathy. An excuse to get together and hate Jews publicly.

As I said in an earlier post - total and complete solidarity with Jews who stand up against this genocidal Israeli regime, and probably against their own community and family and friends. Complete and utter respect for the sacrifice they make.

So Jews are required by you to ostracise themselves from their own family, friends and community to meet your exacting moral threshold? OK…

Would you require this of any other individual who is linked by ethnicity by another regime which you consider unacceptable?

For example would you require a Chinese person to ostracise themselves from everyone in their family because of the treatment of the Uighers? Would you require this of a Russian due to the war in Ukraine?

Or is it just Jews who have to prove to you that they are “good Jews”?

Why are you trying to imply that our money isn't being spent on security? It is. We pay £1600 per child every year for security. On top of that we also have multiple parent volunteers outside school at drop off and collection time.

£15 million per year is obviously nowhere near enough to cover full-time security at every single Jewish institution and event in the UK. Let's say every school has 3 guards (ours has more, so I'm using 3 as an assumed average). According to Google there are 133 Jewish schools. So that's 399 full-time guards. What do we think they're paid? Let's assume minimum wage, even though I'm sure it's more, so £24k per year. So that's already £9.5 million on security just for schools. That's not including security for synagogues, museums, nurseries or old age homes. So it's quite clear that £15 million per year is not going to be anywhere near enough. So we supplement. Please stop trying to imply anything else is happening with our money.

How wilfully blind do you need to be? The government of Israel are currently trying to do the attached. After trying to change the definition of ‘genocide’. I mean - COME ON.

I’m friends with a lovely Jewish Israeli lady. She doesn’t support the Israeli government, she’s horrified and disgusted. I work with a lovely Jewish guy - he was devastated by the October attacks. Still doesn’t support the Israeli government and thinks their actions are morally reprehensible and that there is no justification.

Genocide is genocide regardless of what group is doing it and what the provocation was - it’s a crime against humanity. All people with a moral and ethical sense understand this, hence why there are lots and lots of Jewish people and Israeli people who DO attend marches and protests, just like OP’s friends. Because they are good people who want to make it clear this war is not being fought in their name.

I think she would do well without your friendship. I hope she has good friends who can give her love and support because being Jewish feels extremely lonely these days. When it’s trendy for people to call for you to be wiped off the planet, it makes your mental health take quite the nose dive. Tons of good people out there who take the time to read the truth about what’s actually going on which I know we all deeply appreciate

Love to any Jewish MNs out there.

Back on topic, when you choose your friends, choose accordingly with what resonates with your own beliefs as to who has the right to life and to live in safety, and who doesn’t. To be clear, apartheid regimes have no right to exist but all human beings have a right to exist.

Research by the at the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research has shown that the majority of Palestinians think Oct 7 was a good decision and are opposed to a 2 state solution.

Dr. Khalil Shiki, a Palestinian Professor who's been studying the conflict for over 30 years, said on the support for Hamas that it "comes from various sources, but the most important one is because Palestinians share Hamas' values. They will support Hamas for that, even if Hamas makes wrong moves here or there."

Given that Hamas do not recognise Israel's right to exist, that they're known to commit human rights abuses and unlawful killings of anyone who opposed their views and that the majority of Palestinians support Hamas and their actions, you might want to stop being friends with Pro-Hamas Palestinians.

After all, by your own definitions this type of state has no right to exist.

Well, they’ve kinda criticised Jewish schools getting extra security whilst implying that Jews have all the money sooooo….🤷🏻‍♀️

I think I’m not on their Flake Off list as I support Israel but not necessarily Netanyahu, but not 100% so I’m maybe going to be judged like, 3 days a week?

Anyway, Am Yisrael Chai 🇮🇱

"Research by the at the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research has shown that the majority of Palestinians think Oct 7 was a good decision and are opposed to a 2 state solution.

Dr. Khalil Shiki, a Palestinian Professor who's been studying the conflict for over 30 years, said on the support for Hamas that it "comes from various sources, but the most important one is because Palestinians share Hamas' values. They will support Hamas for that, even if Hamas makes wrong moves here or there."

Given that Hamas do not recognise Israel's right to exist, that they're known to commit human rights abuses and unlawful killings of anyone who opposed their views and that the majority of Palestinians support Hamas and their actions, you might want to stop being friends with Pro-Hamas Palestinians.

After all, by your own definitions this type of state has no right to exist."

Absolutely. And like I said, these are pro Hamas marches because most Palestinians support Hamas and don't want peace with Israel. They want the destruction of Israel and the destruction of the Jewish people.

It doesn’t take long does it? Amazing how often people basically just end up effectively shouting “Just stop being so Jewish!” They slowly make their way through each stereotype without realising they’ve exposed themselves then get all upset when it’s pointed out. What have we had so far? Liars, nazis, got all the money…have we had controlling the media?