Friend in trouble, police at my door.

[Playgroundincident]

My friends daughter is in year five mine is in year 4. My friend is an black, Muslim Zimbabwean woman daughter is also. Daughter has been receiving snipey racist abuse from a child in her class. Always where teachers can't hear and it's been going on for a couple of weeks. Daughter is a wonderful, sociable intelligent sporty kid an absolute pleasure to be around. Friend had been in to school at the beans thought it had been addressed however over the weekend it emerged that it hasn't and the child is still doing it, daughter hadn't said anything to her mum.
My friend was so upset, we walked in he dropped the kids off his morning, she said goodbye to he daughter then we watched the kids line up to go in. My friend and I stood in another part of the playground till she saw the boy who had been racist towards her daughter. She flew at him shouting all sorts of profanities, told him she was going to hit him, fucking kill him. The child was understandably frightened and the dad of another child stepped in and tried to calm the situation down. I grabbed her and took her out of the playground so the teachers could deal with the child. I've never seen he do this before she is not normally this way inclined but has a shit year with a husband who thinks she is there to serve him, left her for another woman, both parents died so her threshold is low at the moment. I sat with her in the car to calm her down. I told her I can't imagine how she is feeling he daughter being racially abused, told her I understood that she wanted to protect her but threatening to kill a 10 year old was not on. She's now annoyed at me asI didn't stick up for her.
An hour later the police have turned up at my door looking for her asking had I seen her, getting a witness statement because school have reported her. Friend has phoned me saying that she knows it was me who told the police and how she thought I would have her back and the year 4/5 WhatsApp has lit up with comments about how I should have done something slagging my friend and me off. For the record I don't agree with what she did but I've now got her and police to deal with. and now he child who made the racist comments mum threatening me. He whole thins is absolutely zero to do with me. I feel sorry for the children but any advice on how to navigate this would be much appreciated. Not sure whether to go for radio silence with everyone but police and school or say something on WhatsApp. My son is in he school and I don't want any fall out on him or my friends daughter either. Any suggestions appreciated.

My previous post at 14.38 needs clarifying.

Bullying is definitely becoming more prevalent. It's not just that we hear about it more. It's happening more frequently. I think it's because we all know so much more about each other's lives and inner landscape now.

That effect this has is that whose who aren't happy with the hand they've been dealt in life pass on this unhappiness. In the past they would have had no choice but to keep their poisonous thoughts and intentions to themselves. They knew that there would be consequences to their actions if they chose to bully. Whether that would be being punished by the teacher or headteacher, or their own parents, or that the child they're bullying's older sibling would get involved and frighten the bully to the extent that they stop. Or when they started work, someone would decide they needed a taste of their own medicine.

(I realise this did not always happen and sometimes the bully got away with it, but there was more of a natural sorting.)

Now a ten year old can do what they hell they like, and people will describe them as a "small child" and say no adult should make them feel bad or punish them in any way.

His parents clearly see no wrong in his behaviour (I mean, do they think this has all blown up out of absolutely nothing?). The school have had no effect on him, the police involvement will all be about the scary lady shouting at him. His victim will probably be the one who has to move schools. The victim's mother's life will get even worse. @Playgroundincident's life will not be improved by any of this.

All because some utter little bullying shit can do what the hell he likes and the WhatsApp group will swooop to his aid.

It looks like he will come out of it having learned nothing at all.

This is not your problem op. You did nothing wrong here. Why are people coming for you. Just be honest with all with the facts. Thats all you can do. Do not retaliate on whatsapps. Radio silence, as hard as that will be. Racial abuse is not on. Yes the child is 10 yo. This will all blow over soon. Keep yourself to yourself, everyone will want to know the gossip

Yeah i would never have given a statement to the police, i don't imagine shes a very close friend of yours and if she is then i understand her upset.

That's exactly what you've repeatedly implied.
By refusing to give a witness statement you're effectively condoning her behaviour whilst impeding a police investigation into a dangerous child abuser

If you are a mandated reporter then you also have to accept it puts you in the line of fire every time you find yourself caught up in anything to do with children/vulnerable adults, and make sure your friends and neighbors understand the position you have upfront and know where you stand on it.

I'm not, but know people who are. I've recently dealt with a horrible incident to try to protect a not at all nice child in a complicated situation, and it's been badly handled and now I and my family are publicly under threat of revenge by those who believe it's 'grassing' and 'snitches get stitches' and 'we' all have a common code of 'take sides' and 'gossip but don't report' conduct.
I didn't sign up to their bullshit and am not going to be intimidated (ok not admit to being intimidated!) by it now.

A child is a child, even when it's a horrible little scroat.

You made the decision to make a statement, you've tried to be honest and fair regardless of feelings, so accept others around you expect you to take sides according to their codes of conduct, not yours, or your careers and walk away.

My 'naice' neighbors hid from awful events that horrified everyone who witnessed them, and are now ignoring the abuse and threats publicly hurled at me.
You can only negotiate these things before events, not afterwards.

Those who want drama will go after it, and those who want peace won't take your side.

Now a ten year old can do what they hell they like, and people will describe them as a "small child" and say no adult should make them feel bad or punish them in any way.

@HerbFan no one has said that. Of course the child should face consequences. And serious ones if it continues. But far better to find out why they are being racist, where it’s come from and work with the family than have that child threatened in the school playground by an adult saying they were going to kill them.

We don’t know what the school has done but there’s a very big chance that the behaviour of the OPs friend will have completely ruined the schools efforts and turned the tables so that the bully and their parents can now play the victim card. She’s played right into their hands.

If she’d continued to raise it with school and if necessary taken the racial abuse to the police herself then it’s likely she would have got something done (a child would have eventually been excluded in my school if the racism continued). Now the school is back at square one, the OP’s friend could be facing serious criminal charges and both kids will suffer.

The 10 year old isn’t a small innocent child - he is a nasty little racist. My nephew is 10, my friends kids are 10, I remember being 10 - at that age you have a pretty clear understanding of right and wrong. As someone pointed out Jamie Bulger’s killers were 10. You have kids committing suicide over bullying, people carry that trauma for life. If I was the woman I would have lost it at the school and reported it at a higher level - the school failed her daughter and the boy’s parents failed her daughter and their son who is not learning about accountability or how yo treat other human beings, I do understand why she lost it at the boy, not something I would do but I understand how frustrated and helpless she must have felt and how that can cause a person to snap, particularly if she had experienced similar in the past.

I actually would state to anyone that asked that while you do not agree with your friends actions there had been a long campaign of extreme racist bullying that had not been addressed at school or by the boys parents and your friend had snapped. Yes it was wrong but also pretty understandable given the circumstances.

I would also message my friend to say that I feel awful for what her and her daughter have endured and no one should suffer that but that she should resist threatening the horrible child as it could lead to her getting in trouble instead. Tell her the correct action would be to put in formal complaints about the school for not adequately addressing bullying and formally report the child to the police for hate speech. I would also get the girl something to set to record every time she is in the line or in the school yard and record what he says. Unfortunately horrible little boys that aren’t held to account grow up to be horrible adults.

What country are you in?

@RandomWordsThrownTogether so far as I can see from the posts of the OP we don’t know what the racist bullying was (let alone whether it was extreme), what the school have been doing so far or what the school had planned to do if there was a further incident. We also only have the account of the OP based on what her friend told her, not what the school has said or what the other child has said. We simply don’t know whether quite a few of your assumptions are correct.

@Heronwatcher I think we all know that @Playgroundincident 's friend has not come up with a solution to bullying: that she hasn't covered herself in glory.

I'm just looking at it from the point of view of a parent whose DC is a victim of bullying and feels frustrated that there is very little recourse.

The person I feel most sorry for in all of this is the ten year old girl who has been bullied. I was also wondering if the @Playgroundincident 's daughter is going to be made to suffer at school.

My dc was bullied.

The school focused on the bully, teaching how not to bully. They (quietly) told me that he came from contentious home circumstances.

I asked why they presumed that my dc didn't. How they could know?

Their intervention consisted of teaching my dc to "use your voice" (they had), tell a teacher (be a snitch), move seats (the bully never had to move) and so on.

The conceit now is that bullies come from trauma, therefore we treat them carefully, and almost entirely ignore their victims.

It beggars belief.

You get thrown up against walls of bureaurcracy, and, walls of language that are designed to impede rather than resolve.

I expect that is what happened the mother in this case, and while it is not acceptable to rage like that, I completely understand her.

Now of course, everyone is looking at the mad woman, not at the racist abuse the nasty little chap threw around the playground. That, of course, validates him and yet another unsavoury character is formed.

@andIsaid Hear hear.

I hope your child is doing a bit better?

If you'd actually bothered to read the thread, Op already has given her statement hours ago. As she should have. I'm really confused as to why you and some other posters seem to think giving a statement is somehow "telling" on her friend, as if they are kids themselves 🙄

It was in a playground. There were multiple witnesses, the incident is going to be investigated regardless of whether OP gets involved or not. She's not "informing" on her friend like a spy for the Stasi, ffs.

The benefit of OP giving a statement is that she is likely the only one going to be even vaguely on the friend's side and able to back up her rationale (even if she doesn't condone her actions) by confirming it has been an ongoing issue, child has been badly affected, friend tried going to the school first etc.

Without OPs statement the ONLY accounts will be from people like the child's mum who is hardly going to be objective, and possibly random bystanders who are only going to have seen a woman running over to a scared child screaming she was going to kill him, which, particularly out of context is going to be interpreted very badly.

There's also the possibility that other witnesses might (either deliberately if they are friends of bully child's mum, or by mistake) make the event sound even worse. If the police officer took two statements saying "I'm pretty sure she actually hit the child" and OP didn't give a statement then they are less likely to believe the friend if she is the only one insisting she didn't. But at least if OP, as a semi-objective observer also says "no there is no way she made contact" then it casts doubt on it.

Giving an accurate witness statement is actually the best thing OP could have done to support her friend.

Only if there's evidence of it. If as is implied in the op the boy was being sneaky about it and always doing it out of sight/earshot of staff then when an investigation is done nothing is found. The school will then inform the police that it was an unfounded allegation of racist bullying which could backfire on the woman in question as it then looks like she's targeting the child.

The police are likely to drop the case as charging a mother of a child on the receiving end of racist abuse is likely to become very messy.
Threats to kill charge can only be applied if they genuinely believe someone’s life was at risk, which is unlikely in this case. We are then left with racial harassment and abuse, and whether the CPS will be interested in pursuing a ten year old.

Most likely a common sense approach will be taken. This still does not help the victim here of racial abuse - that now not only has to contend with her racist bullies but now has to deal with the fall out of the altercation in the playground. None of this is her fault, she is the only victim in this situation.

I sincerely hope the school move heaven and earth to support her. Our school certainly would.

The children should be encouraged to talk through this incident with a counsellor. Especially the little girl.

IF you were standing chatting in a group of people I can only suggest that you let others know this, also stating that while your friend was also one of those people there never in a million years would you have predicted that she'd have gone for a child as she did.

There wouldn't have been any point in refusing to talk to the police so you did nothing wrong there, I suspect your friends feelings are running high and she feels that the racist comments made towards her DC and how upset they've been are being forgotten about in all this.

I dare say it was awful for both adults and children caught in the cross fire and should now act as a lesson for the school, and parents that any form of bulling/racist comments need addressing and nipping in the bud immediately.

I would also like to add whatever op was doing, it was not her job to babysit her adult friend!

You sound like someone who is very thoughtful and fair minded - I’d post something on the WhatsApp group along the lines of “I know the incident was a shock for everyone, myself included, and I think we all agree that it should never have happened as no adult should act that way to a 10 year old no matter the context/if she felt she was protecting her own child. At the same time, I was surprised and disappointed that people on this chat have suggested I should have somehow have known what was about to happen or be able to prevent it when I’ve certainly never seen anything to suggest an incident like this was about to occur and I don’t think I have ever behaved in a manner which suggests I believe this is how we should solve issues. I plan to leave the school to deal with the legal aftermath and focus on my own children and their lives so please leave me out of any further conversations on the matter.” Then mute / don’t respond further. The only reason I would say anything is that I think it’s better to tell your story firmly and fairly once (and only once) before muting them all.

Threats to kill charge can only be applied if they genuinely believe someone’s life was at risk, which is unlikely in this case

Wrong. The question is whether OP's friend intended that person being threatened (the child in this case) would fear that she might do it. It doesn't matter whether the police believe OP's friend would have killed the child. What matters is what OP's friend wanted the child to think. Offences Against the Person Act 1861 S16.

Your friend was obviously wrong however if the mother of the bully starts giving you shit I'd be inclined to tell her that none of it would have happened if her child wasn't a nasty little racist.

Is the 10 year old boy white British, op?

Completely agree with this. I’d have done exactly the same as you OP and I really feel for you. I’d have to correct the WhatsApp and your friend because I think other parents are concluding that you are in some way involved or condoning your friends behaviour (completely unfairly) and because it was so out of line I’d want to make my own position clear.

As others have suggested I’d put a message on the WhatsApp to say you were as shocked as anyone to see x’s behaviour in the playground this morning and as soon as you realised what was happening you went over and got her away and off the premises, you’re aware it’s been reported to the police and you’ve made a statement so it’s probably best that they and the school deal from now on. If threats are being made against you screenshot and report to the police and school and then mute.

I feel very sorry for your friend but there is no possible way that screaming swearing and threatening to hit and kill a 10 year old in a primary school playground is in any way justifiable. I know she’s under huge stress but I think if I was you I would consider distancing myself especially as she’s accused you of reporting to the police and seems to think you should have stood up for her in the playground, maybe she’ll rethink that once she has calmed down. She owes you a huge apology. I’d probably send a fairly terse message saying I didn’t report to the police but they have asked me for a statement which I have provided, suggest maybe you can talk when things have calmed down but you stand by what you said to her in the car.

Also agree with previous posters who have pointed out we don’t really have evidence that the school were failing to deal with the racist comments. Sounds like it was possible they were not aware it was still happening. The daughter hadn’t told her mum until the weekend. I really hope it doesn’t get forgotten or minimised as a result of all of this.

It is extremely challenging to get a threats to kill charge to stick even with cases that are absolutely threatening, include a degree of planning etc and when violence and previous threats have already happened. Even with serious DV cases this offence is rare. It is extremely unlikely to go anywhere, because the prosecutor will have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that ops friend intended to actually kill the child. There is no suggestion of that.

@SidekickSylvia I think so, he presents that way but I've only ever seen him with his gran so can't be sure.

You are not responsible for her ,or anything she does .
That's what I'd be putting on the group chat .
Gosh though,your getting it from both ends
I'm sorry your in this situation