If you think not having children is selfish…

[JolieFilleCommentCaVa]

Can you explain why?

Saw a thread on X/Twitter that went viral of an OP stating they were choosing to stay child free in their 20’s. Hundreds of replies telling them how ‘selfish’ they are.

What makes it selfish?

Must admit. I have never even had a man ask if I have kids, never mind give a shit. It has only been ever women that ask.

All of this.

It's misogyny in a patriarchal society that wants women to "know their place". (I.e. Not taking on the patriarchal standards of the day, and not threatening all those insecure men who fervently want to believe they are somehow superior).

I think the society Margaret Atwood created in the Handmaids Tale is just around the corner in America and explains some of these prevalent narratives on social media.

It’s linked to the “great replacement theory” and racism, that by 2044 whites will be a minority in the US. Trump partly won the presidency in 2016 as a racist backlash to Obama, and his base is white working class men resisting the change and evolution of their country.

It is also linked to falling birth rates across the developed world. But not always race.

In my personal opinion, everyone is selfish at times in their lives. It’s the human condition.

Good parents are not selfish by definition as they put their children first. But non parents are also unselfish as they may well put others in their lives first - spouse, friends, family. Or some people are just selfish as they put themselves first and that’s just living up to the dictionary definition of the word!

I do agree with the poster who said having children is inherently sustainable, as in it’s sustaining humanity. And I do find some viewpoints in these debates anti-human. And finally, I’ve personally experienced such overwhelming love and happiness from having children - unique and life affirming - I sometimes feel sorry for people who don’t have that. But I’d never say it! And just like abortion, I fiercely respect and defend the right of anyone not to have children. It’s a personal choice and there is room for everyone in our society. God forbid we see Gilead realised.

I think this might be more about your great aunt growing up in a time when families were supposed to respect and care for their elders no matter what they were like. Times have changed. You say she expected care from age 60. I'm age 60. I can plank for 2 minutes, run miles and stand on my head. I'm not expecting care. I am child free and it's never bothered me about who will look after me should I need it. I have a sister who has aggressive cancer aged 67. She won't let any of us siblings near her to offer support - because she values privacy and independence. My next door neighbour who was the same died in her own home alone in her late seventies. The male neighbour next to her, did the same. They didn't want any intervention. My mother was exactly the same. Us trying to help her was an intrusion. I'll be the same because I don't believe children are there to look after you when you become frail, especially if they don't want to. They're not an insurance policy. I came in this life alone; I can sure as hell get out of it alone.

Some people who have kids think that the world revolves around their little family unit, i.e. them and their kids.

They make allowances for themselves and their kids, but not for other people's kids.

Only envious people say that not having children is selfish.

Unless the person who said this volunteers regularly in the community or volunteers for an aid organisation like MSF, Red Cross/Red Crescent, and similar charities that undertake dangerous but essential work, and has offspring that do the same, the notion that having children is in itself more selfless is nonsensical. Only raising children who are selfless and productive in the community is not selfish.

But many grown up children don't actually achieve this ideal and especially not the people who make this comment. Most of the time they just raise copies of their selfish selves!

People with children also stand to gain from having children- companionship, company when old or frail- provided you raised them correctly to be responsible and you're not so cantankerous or mean that they would rather avoid you!

How one chooses to deal with one's misery or obligations has nothing to do with others.

The country isn't going to run out of humans to work just because some people can't have or choose not to have children. The UK is far from having a greying population or declining birth rate- currently it is the opposite! (Also, as this country is historically good at doing since the dawn of time, there's always migration if we're short of young people of working age to do the jobs.) So in fact, at this point in time, it is probably the childless people being selfless.

Yes. They put your choice to spend free time over the feelings of your IMAGINARY children. You are doing things for yourself instead of your IMAGINARY child.

I think I contributed a lot more to the world before I had my son. Now I'm using my free time for me, not that I have a lot of it, and my free money for him, not that I have a lot of that either.

And I get the selfish comments for just having one :D

You're overgeneralising based on (presumably) your own personal experiences. There are a ton of us who don't fit your frankly overtired stereotype.

Some people might have children in the hope that they'll be someone around to care for them in their old age but I'm pretty damn certain that no one has children as an altruistic act to help ensure that society will have enough people to pay and care for the future of society and its members.

You are making sacrifices but only for your own kids who are really an extension of you.

I don't think that this makes you less selfish than child-free people. Childfree people often have more time to volunteer to help people who are not related to them. I know a few childfree people who volunteer at food banks for example.

I think if I was unlucky enough to be one of the 11 or 12 biological kids (primarily through IVF) that Elon Musk had with women he is not in a functional relationship with, I would:

• take him to court (because it is America) for overpopulating the planet and abandoning his own children
• change my name as soon as humanly possible and leave the area / country
• advise him to stick to space instead of trying to populate the current planet with kids he doesn't want who will have to bear the future burden of being here

Two thirds of the world's countries now have childbirth rates below replacement rate. Population growth is pretty much limited to sub saharan Africa.

The economic implications of this will be huge - the workforce will gradually reduce causing economic decline, pensions will become entirely unaffordable and the effect on healthcare will be devasting, with more and more older people reliant on healthcare and fewer people to staff hospitals and carehomes.

I said often not always, or even most of the time.

Oh I have, and I’ve only been called selfish for it by men, but if you really want to see this kind of guy, you can find them all over Twitter, normally American.

If the cost of a low birth rate is so high for future global planning, then those countries with low birth rates need to offer massive financial and other incentives to encourage people to procreate. A generous lump sum per child, (max 4 maybe), ongoing child allowance at a very generous level and not capped, plus free childcare, education, university (no student loans like in Ireland), should do it. Oh and free IVF on demand.

The cost of having children for many is beyond their reach. So hey Gov, give us a few bob and it'll be done.

It's either that or import personnel. Either way the future cost of a low birth rate is much more than the incentives would ever be.

With regards the question of whether a) the world, b) one's own country is overpopulating or failing to reproduce sufficiently to work and do essential jobs in the future, the answer is both. In many under developed communities there is overpopulation- but you can't say that an overpopulated village in Africa means England - or Wales- will be bursting at the seams. They're not able to teleport here! Sadly in many underdeveloped communities where the birth rate is very high, many children will die before the age of 5, many mothers will die in childbirth and many men will die in unsafe workplace conditions.

At the same time, there are many first world nations with a greying population and a declining birth rate - the list varies from year to year but in the last 10 years, nations like Italy, Japan, South Korea, Germany, France, Estonia have been on the list. But it does change, for various reasons. And if they do take in people born and raised abroad for work or who settle for other reasons (eg fleeing war or economic deprivation) and start families, then the figures improve again. All developed nations have always found solutions to increase their birth rate or workforce population if it drops too much, whether that is financial incentives to have children, encouraging migration and temporary workers from abroad, or both.

No nation is currently on its knees as a result of having too few births. Countries that have overpopulation and very high birth rates - historically this has always been shown that if the educational attainment of girls and women improves then the childbirth rate slows down and infant mortality and maternal mortality often improve also. (It doesn't mean making them get A grades but instead it means keeping them in education for longer till at least 16, even better, till 18, because previously they were often not sent to school or if they were, they used to be prematurely removed by parents from school before the age of 14 or even as young as 10).

Ah. I don't have twitter, Instagram or tiktok type stuff
I was more talking in real life, (and I only know 1 American)

So what do you suggest? We keep growing and growing until we’re unable to sustain ourselves and then let society/the planet crumble? We either go for a short term problem of accepting a declining population, or we create a longer term problem until it gets to the point that it’s too late to do anything about it and then we all suffer?

Maybe we can have a rule. Only 2 generations at a time.
As soon as there is a birth at the bottom, there needs to be a cull at the top.
That'll keep the population in check.

So no grandparents allowed then......

That may be the case but child free ppl are more likely to be net contributors throughout their working lives so surely it balances out.

Off the top of my head, they will never receive child benefit, won't need pregnancy/maternity care from the NHS, Stat mat pay, won't have children being educated by tax payers, won't have dependents who use services etc etc

That's before you get onto the fact that women who don't have children are I assume less likely to be part time at points in their working life so likely to pay more tax.

So I don't see that argument at all. You could equally argue that child free pay more in and therefore should be able to take more out. But no one would make that argument.

It's not selfish at all!
What i do find selfish is people who have children to "look after them in their old age" or have a child to "be their best friend and to go places with" I know someone like this and it's sickening.
I'm happy with my choice not to have children.

I've heard loads of people say having kids is selfish!

Basically... As a woman you can never do anything right

I have no idea, but there is a huge amount of research on population planning and many countries are beginning to take measures to increase birth rates.

Recently there seems to have been a shift towards promoting/supporting child free lifestyles - I see it everywhere, countless articles, social media posts and threads like this one. So much so that Russia have banned any maternial promoting child free lifestyles (I'm not in support of this but using it as an example of the scale of the problem). Nearly twenty five per cent of Gen Z'rs have said they don't intend to have children.

I personally don't believe that not having children is selfish on an individaul level, but if we don't do stop this cultural shift, we are going to see profound effects on society.