If you think not having children is selfish…

[JolieFilleCommentCaVa]

Can you explain why?

Saw a thread on X/Twitter that went viral of an OP stating they were choosing to stay child free in their 20’s. Hundreds of replies telling them how ‘selfish’ they are.

What makes it selfish?

@Shallana , I just looked up what you wrote about Russia. Fascinating. Russians calling the concept of being child-free "an evil from the West".

One to watch - could be the start of a trend especially if Trump wins given how aligned his values are with Putin. Just watch how they seek to export this view to other countries. Eg UNFPA, the part of the UN that leads on family planning and population control, will be the first UN agency the US stops funding. (As they did in 2016).

Will democratic countries wishing to reverse birth rate trends use carrot or stick?

Russia, battling birth rate dip, is working on 'child-free' ideology ban

People, in the Western world at least, have children because they want to. Not to provide workers or pay taxes in the future.

People don't have children because they don't want to. Not to save the environment or prevent overpopulation.

Both choices are 'selfish' in that the people making them are doing so for their own personal reasons. But the same could be said for the vast majority of choices we make in life. It's a silly argument.

I never used to understand the 'it's selfish not to have kids' sentiment either but recently someone put to me quite a reasonable argument - right now, possibly, it's not selfish but as you age you will want/need/rely on the skills and services of other people, eventually those people will all be from the generation below you (or even younger) and you are needing their help without actually having sacrificed anything to contribute to their numbers.

So using your time and resources for your own benefit but then expecting other people to provide you with doctors, lawyers, bankers, farmers etc as well.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say selfish but I see the line of thought.

But people who have children aren't doing so to provide workers for the future.

They're doing so because they want to.

So that is a selfish choice.

And there's absolutely no guarantee that their children might grow into adults who contribute positively to society. Not all children become 'doctors, lawyers, bankers, farmers etc'. Some become drug addicts, criminals, permanently unemployed and so on. Some have special needs which makes them a net financial burden to society.

If you have children, did you do so because you are certain your child is a future doctor or lawyer? Or simply because you wanted to have a child?

It's a nonsense argument.

I know you did. I still find it an overgeneralisation.

@IcedPurple I had children because we wanted them. I wanted a family. Families make me happy, close relationships make me happy, and the closest ones I have are with my family. But also because I like people and I want to help the human race to continue.
I am pretty sure my children will be a good contributor to society. DH and I put a lot of effort, love, and time into raising our kids to make this outcome more likely.
More people do good than bad.
More people contribute than not.

Right.

So you had children to fulfill a personal desire. That's an entirely selfish motivation.

Your children may well turn out to make a positive contribution to society, but that is not why you chose to have them. You chose to have them because you wanted to.

But as others have pointed out some people have children that don't go on to contribute in any way. And no one ever knows which way your children will go. So there could be someone who desperately wanted children who's children go on to be criminals and layabouts who never work. If that person had chosen not to have children they would have actually saved society from multiple drains on society. So you don't know if the people who choose not to have them are actually making a great choice that does benefit society.
The fact of the matter is no one can go into the future to see what type of children they will have. So everyone makes the choice based on what they want.
A childfree by choice woman who's worked her whole life, a mother with 2 severely disabled children who has never worked, a mother who works part time with 1 criminal adult child serving a prison sentence, a mother with 6 adult children who are all on benefits and a mother who earns a six figure salary herself with 3 doctor adult children shouldn't be any more of less deserving of care in their old age.

It was both reasons.

But as we’re all selfish, it being an inherently human trait, happy to be that too! But we had children both for us and for social reasons. As in we like human society and wanted to contribute to it continuing. But absolutely no judgement on anyone who feels differently to me!! Or wants to contribute in a different way. There is room for all in this tent. 😊

Well, yes of course that's true - in the moment people have children because they want to (at least nowadays when actual physical labour isn't immediately necessary to help family life). But those children will, on a national scale, by and large, provide services that benefit people - and childfree people who NOW are using their finances and time simply to please themselves WILL need the next generation to provide services and expertise to them later in their life. That's a fact.

It's not just doctors and scientists that are needed, no one's saying that. All jobs are valuable - if no one stocks the shelves at the supermarket you don't eat, if no one cleans the streets you're unlikely to do it yourself, certainly not in your dotage. So older people rely increasingly on the younger generation - which they did not contribute to in terms of time or life sacrifice.

And of course some people become drug addicts or criminals but that's a bit of a silly point. Thems be the odds, without accepting those realities you won't get the people to help either.

I see you've changed your argument in under an hour.

Because you were telling people that choosing not to reproduce was selfish just a few posts ago.

@Dwappy the law of probability, based on data and statistics, is that the majority of children will “contribute” to society. Only a small minority end up as criminals. And even criminals can contribute in the end - see rehabilitation.

How do you define “contribute” anyway?

For me it’s more than money and tax and skills. It’s also emotional and relationship and social contributions. Creativity, reliability, trustworthiness. All important contributions. Raising happy children in turn. Being part of a community.

I really did not! that’s the opposite of what I think. Please don’t put words into my mouth that I didn’t type.

Genuinely trying to contribute to an interesting discussion. With respect. Take it at face value.

That's a retro-engineered argument. You can't have a crystal ball to see what each child will be when they're grown and decide who is worthy. Some will contribute, others won't, that's life. But everyone will still be reliant on those that do.

A lot of the jobs you mention are likely to be done by technology by the time children born today are adults.

But that's not really the point. You refer to "childfree people who NOW are using their finances and time simply to please themselves", again suggesting that they are selfish, despite your unconvincing denials. But as we've established, you chose to reproduce for your own selfish reasons. So you too are using your finances and time simply to please yourself. You aren't a better person just because you reproduced.

No you're right and i did say that. But do people honestly want people who do not want children to have them? All children deserve to be raised in homes where they are truly wanted. You can't change someone's mind or hope they change it when the children arrive. Look at all the children up for adoption or in care. Should the woman who had multiple children but gave them all up/neglected them until they were taken away still be more deserving of care in old age than those that chose not to have them?
I wanted them but couldn't have them. But in old age how could I prove that? So potentially I could be left without care due to the fact I haven't reproduced.

It’s really easy to make the argument that you’re not selfish and should be covered in old age because you did something you actually really wanted to do anyway.

To argue that people who don’t want children (and who therefore would more likely than not cause emotional harm to those children) are less deserving of old age because they weren’t as selfless as you doing exactly what you wanted to do anyway is pretty damn devoid of empathy.

Unwanted children should be avoided at all costs - it’s deeply selfish to the child. Parents who argue that they deserve something for providing taxpayers, whereas childless people don’t, aren’t exactly poster children for Being Less Selfish, are they?

I have DC but I don’t think it’s at all selfish for people not to 🤷‍♀️. Much more selfish to have a bunch of kids you can’t afford to bring up properly then expect the taxpayer to pick up the tab.

I'm childfree by choice. One of the big factors for me is having my independence, not having to take small children absolutely everywhere (ie., you can't just leave them at home while you nip to the shops 🤣), travelling where I want and when I want. Having more money to spend. So I guess that's selfish?

But the main argument I get from people with children is "who will look after you when you're old?" and to me that's the epitome of selfishness, having offspring because you expect them to look after you. Or "don't you want to leave a legacy?" is also very selfish and narcissistic.

I actually think choosing to have children is one of the most selfish decisions you could ever make. Not that I'm saying having children is wrong, but if you're going to argue that point.... 🤷

I don’t know if the people who think everyone should have children are sweetly naive or terrifying stupid.

Millions of parents walk out on their children, there’s billions owed in child support from Jon resident parents in the uk alone. Add on parents who neglect, abuse or murder their own children and we have four groups off the top of my head who shouldn’t have had children. Then add in the people who have children but abuse other people’s causing harm to other children and their own, parents who add abusive ‘step parents’ to the family and god knows what else.

In the news every day there’s something about poor children abused and/or murdered but childless/childfree women are the ‘bad’ or ‘selfish’ ones 😂

I think it is selfish to bring a child into a world you are not optimistic about. I think birth rate decline across the world has many factors but the biggest one is the education of women. The better educated women are the more the birth rate drops.

I want to have children in good circumstances or not at all. I don't want to bring children into strife, struggle, poverty etc etc. I worry about climate change and AI. Even as a child I struggled with the fact I brought into a world where there was so much I was forced to do. My child might think the way I do and may not enjoy life so much.

At what point did I suggest that I, personally, was better than anyone else? And I didn't say whether I want kids or not so you're making some bold claims.

Listen, I don't really have any strong views on whether people are selfish or not for remaining childfree. But the logic of the argument is sound - people will rely on the younger generation and if you have deliberately not contributed to the sacrifice of creating and rearing that generation, but use them anyway, then I can see why people would see that as selfish. I'm not really in either camp, but I'm not elderly and using resources in that way yet.

I am, by the way, absolutely not saying that childfree people do not 'deserve' care when they're older so please don't try that angle.

But what if you contribute in other ways as so many people do? Teaching, youth work, healthcare, mentoring, charities, taxes etc etc etc Directly or indirectly whether you give birth to a child or not you could help the future generation.

I also think that arguments breaks down if you have a child who is unable to contribute monetarily to society.

I think childfree people absolutely deserve care when they’re older. If nothing else, they will likely have contributed a lot more to public services which they will use less or not at all eg schools, than many others through their taxes.