If you think not having children is selfish…

[JolieFilleCommentCaVa]

Can you explain why?

Saw a thread on X/Twitter that went viral of an OP stating they were choosing to stay child free in their 20’s. Hundreds of replies telling them how ‘selfish’ they are.

What makes it selfish?

The OP's question was WHY is it selfish to not have children? In response to having seen such comments on twitter.

Pedantically, 'it is selfish not to have children' is a statement not a question but even bypassing that - I presented an argument as to WHY people think not having children is selfish. Not whether or not it in actuality IS. As per the original post.

Ridiculous. We need more child free people... the world is burning and full of plasticky shit

If you want to be pedantic, the OP says

What makes it selfish?

It seems like a pretty straightforward question to me. Not a statement at all.

But this is getting silly.

I don't disagree with you. But this isn't about which group is selfish and which is not. Everyone is selfish in their own ways. In your argument people with children are 'selfish' by using up resources and not contributing as much as the childfree. Equally, childfree-by-choice people are 'selfish' for not had the responsibilities of having children but expecting there to be a younger generation to continue providing resources for them.

The fact that people with children can also be deemed selfish doesn't neutralise the reasons that childfree people are. Everyone is selfish, in their own way about almost literally anything. The question wasn't about who is better than who, it wasn't 'who is the least selfish?' It was why do people SAY that childfree people are selfish.

PP have said things like you have deliberately not contributed to the sacrifice of creating and rearing that generation, but use them anyway, then I can see why people would see that as selfish

I find this argument odd. If you go on holiday abroad and pay to eat at a restaurant, are you "deliberately not contributing [...] but using them anyway"?

• First, childfree people have to pay for the services mentioned like everyone else (e.g. carers, shop workers etc.). And the people in these professions rely on the grey pound.
• Second, childfree people do contribute to creating and rearing that generation, for example through taxes, charitable donations, being teachers, aunts etc. My taxes paid for your NHS IVF, birth, free childcare hours, vaccinations etc. It pays for your children's school.
• Third, you could see it as "paying it forward": Childfree people help elders beyond their parents - for example by working in the shops and as carers OR things like volunteering AND paying taxes again; looking after the elderly neighbour or aunt.

Childfree people contribute in many different ways. The "resource taking" argument just doesn't make sense.

Our tax, social security and welfare state system is based on the assumption of a minimum birth rate of 2.1 (the replacement rate).

Less than that the fabric of society falls apart.

We put in as adults (paying tax, working in the system & having DCs) then we take out when older/needing care etc.

If you intend to take out without putting in you will be living off the unpaid work of others. That is unfair & selfish.

I think one issue is your argument of "let's say everyone [did this thing]". That pretty much always leads to negative outcomes. You're talking in extremes.

On tourism

• what if everyone went on holiday to Cornwall (overcrowding)
• what if everyone stopped going on holiday to Cornwall (industry and job collapse)

On

• what if everyone drove a car (Pollution)
• what if everyone stopping driving cars (Stressed public resources and lack of infrastructure for public transport)

You seem to be making the society-level argument of selfishness, ignoring the personal motivation. Practically, there are good societal-level reasons why people who don't want children shouldn't have them, which loads of PP on this thread have outlined.

We all have to think of others though . Someone could be childless and not be caring for another human being like a parent or disabled spouse but:

They may have a pet(s)

They may work in a caring profession like teaching, social work or healthcare or for a charity helping the vulnerable

They may drive a car. If you drive you have to think of other road users.

They may have friends and a social life. We think about our friends feelings and needs and wants don't we? If a friend asks us if a dress makes us look fat and it does, we would usually try to be tactful in the way we reply.

OK, these things aren't 24/7 roles like caring for a young child. So I could accept that maybe the childfree don't have to care with such a huge level of intensity as parents . But I don't buy that the childfree don't have to care about anyone else at all. Care for maybe. Which I agree is different .

We are all part of a community. Even if it's low level caring about someone like looking in on an elderly neighbour from time to time.

You seem to be making the society-level argument of selfishness, ignoring the personal motivation.

I'd agree with that.

Practically, there are good societal-level reasons why people who don't want children shouldn't have them, which loads of PP on this thread have outlined.

There are, and they have - it doesn't mean my argument isn't true. I'm not advocating or criticising people's individual reasons - but choosing not to have children while benefitting from others that have IS selfish on a societal level. Having kids is also selfish, for different reasons. Having kids and not raising them well is also selfish. All that is true. But people on here are desperately trying to say not having kids ISN'T selfish, which isn't true. That's really all I'm saying.

But people on here are desperately trying to say not having kids ISN'T selfish, which isn't true

If the only way it’s selfish is because society needs kids, then you’re saying that people not having kids they don’t want and fucking them up is selfish. Can you not see how insane that sounds?

On this basis, parents are also selfish for not having as many kids as they physically can. What, that’d mean compromising the care of the existing ones? Too bad, it’s selfish otherwise! The only thing that matters is there being enough humans!

Why do you only say it's unfair and selfish if someone is living off the UNPAID work of others? If a parent has 10 children but never works in order to raise them, so never pays tax, they are living off others hard work. They are taking benefits from the system in order to support those children but their only contribution is the children themselves (who may or may not go on to be contributors). Maybe they visit a food bank which is run by childfree volunteers who are doing UNPAID work. So they are also living off the unpaid work of others at times.
Society relies on the majority of people doing things in a certain way. But it accounts for those that can't or won't. Some people have 6 children. Others have none. Some people never work and never pay tax. Others earn millions. Some people have severe health issues costing the NHS thousands. Others have excellent health until a sudden death. Some people drop dead before ever claiming their pension. Others live to 100+.
Unfortunately though life is generally unfair. But very few people are so awfully selfish they are actively rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of "taking" loads from poor hard working unpaid parents and the future generations. Most childfree people contribute in other ways like working and paying tax. It's still contributing. Not everyone has to contribute to society in identical ways.
Maybe the government should start funding unlimited IVF for the infertile. That might help to boost the birth rate. However it would also cost a bomb and I'm sure plenty of people wouldn't agree with that either!

The number one reason people don't want to be parents is because of their experience of being abused as a child according to a Psychiatrist I watched on TV recently.

What does amuse me is why people who choose not to have children think every parent is jealous of their child free existence. I wonder if the child free people tell their Mothers how stupid they are for giving birth.

Three of the most deeply selfish people I've ever met have children. I know someone else who never married or had children and she's an angel.

What a delightful post. They way you move between the content of your first paragraph and then sneering at that same group of people is just lovely. You certainly don’t sound selfish at all!

Some PP are making the point that it's selfish not to contribute to society by having kids.

But many people don't have them because they have no partner or because their relationship is unstable or because they can't afford childcare. The cost of housing is also insane in the UK.

If the government hadn't allowed so many costs to spiral, and if there was affordable childcare, there would probably be more babies.

Marriage is more unstable than it's ever been these days, too. Can we really blame women for looking at a possible life of scrimping and saving, doing the lion's share of the housework, AND raising the children, and saying no thanks, that sounds bloody awful?

Men are responsible for the low birthrate too, in this way. They too often cheat, and many don't want to get married or settle down or have kids, either. And we all know how painfully slow progress has been in trying to get men to take on more of the domestic load.

So, sometimes not having children is a function of the wider context, not necessarily because someone doesn't want them. Not everyone has enough money to make it work, not everyone meets a decent partner.

It's pretty mean to call people without children selfish. Women are boxed in by ALL the factors described above. We don't just have a free choice whether to have them or not, independent of any factor. Money and partner quality are vital.

I wonder if the child free people tell their Mothers how stupid they are for giving birth.

Huh? Why would we? We’re not childfree because we think nobody should have kids. Just that we shouldn’t.

Just as I assume you won’t be telling your kids that they’re stupid if they’re childfree.

I never really wanted kids. My niblings have benefited from me caring for their grandparents as it freed their mum up to be with them instead of away at her parents' house. They also benefit from me being another caring adult in their lives.

I also cared for my husband during years of being ill, and I have intensely supported friends. I also visit people when they're in hospital and do not shy away from friends who develop serious illnesses like cancer or who are bereaved. (Many do disappear at these times.)

I'm childfree, but I'm not selfish, at all. I went above and beyond for my parents and did every little thing I possibly could to make their lives better when they were ill and bereaved, to the significant detriment of my own life. For years.

I know parents who absolutely do not give a flying f*ck about anyone else but their DC and maybe their DH. They're completely obsessed with their own genes. It doesn't take much to love your own children; after all, they're half you anyway, so it's like loving yourself. You're getting something out of it, not least someone to check on you and help you out, at least to some extent, in old age, even if the grown kids don't live near. There is something in it for you in the future when you have children, unlike when you care for elderly parents or do charity work.

I wonder how many people would have kids if they had a magic crystal ball and could know in advance that they'd have no help of any kind whatsoever in their old age from said kids?

I'm just a bit suspicious of some parents' halos, that's all.

Ultimately though, all these accusations about selfishness are silly. People do what they want. Those who want kids, have them (if possible). Those who don't want them, don't have them. We all live in service to our wants.

I think accusations of selfishness come from those who resent the intensive caregiving that child-rearing entails. If you enjoy raising your kids, you'd be feeling very sorry for those who don't have them, not assassinating their characters.

Yes. I read that with a 'wow' face... seriously?

you’re saying that people not having kids they don’t want and fucking them up is selfish.

Yes. It IS selfish. They don't 'want' kids and so they honour that personal want above all else. That is literally the definition of selfish: acting in the interests of self. That's not meant to be a personal attack, it's just what the word means.

So just to be clear, the selfless thing to do here would be, for people who don’t want kids and don’t have the capacity to raise them, to have them anyway, even though the likely outcome is that they fuck them up (with all the societal consequences that flow from that).

We have a very, very different definition of the word “selfish” in that case.

Except childfree women often pay more taxes over a working life because they don't need to scale back or leave the workforce to raise the kids.

The truly selfless choice is adoption.

Not 'wanting' kids and not having the capacity to raise them are not the same thing.

There's no obligation to 'fuck kids up' - anyone can make shit (and selfish) decisions regarding how they treat a child but don't use 'but I didn't want to do this is the first place' as an excuse.

People don't want their choices to be called selfish, of course they don't. But own it, there are worse things in life. Want kids for your own personal reasons and possibly use the resources more than others? Selfish. Want to use your time and finances for your own gain rather than raising kids and then use the younger generation to support you? Selfish.

Luckily we live in a world where by and large we can accommodate letting those who want children to have them and those that don't not to, it doesn't have to be a fist fight and this isn't the middle ages or the handmaids' tale. Just stop trying to say that either decision isn't 'selfish' in its own way.

Sometimes but not always.

I was adopted and I certainly know my mother didn't adopt me out of selflessness. Quite the contrary.

Adoptive parents who already have a child or children, who like to be stretched, perceive a need and want to provide a stable home for a child, maybe one with difficulties, and are prepared to put the work in, are being unselfish.

It's a different ball game with adoptive parents who are infertile. They have unfulfilled needs. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

I doubt anybody is completely selfless but a less selfish option for someone who cannot have children is to work for a better society, tackling social issues.

Not having children is selfish because you have chosen a child-free way of life over contributing future workers to support the economy etc.

Having your own children is selfish because of the impact on the environment by bringing more humans into the world.

Being unable to conceive naturally and having children through assisted conception is selfish because of the additional pressure on nhs for those who should accept the hand nature has dealt them, and also due to the number of children in care.

Being unable to conceive naturally or through assisted conception and choosing not to go down the gruelling road of fostering or adoption are selfish for putting themselves in front of the children in care.

Women are selfish whatever they do when it comes to reproduction (or lack thereof) unfortunately 🤷‍♀️