Angry with son for abandoning daughter on night out

[maxtheblackcat]

I need some perspective before I say anything as I’m so angry right now I could be very unfair.
I have lived a very sheltered life, I know this and try to be mindful that it can make me naive. My son who is 25 lives in London, his girlfriend works in the fashion and entertainment industry and has some friends who are actors/musicians/models. Not your household names but none the less famous and have some influence. We are down visiting son in London, my daughter who’s 19 came with us. My daughter is on a gap year, she isn’t the most confident and doesn’t really do the whole drinking/club scene. Even if she did our nearest clubs are small so a very different feel.
Some of sons girlfriends friends were planning a night out, they had a reservation at a lovely expensive restaurant and then were on the guest list for a seemingly high end/exclusive club. My daughter ended up invited, she was hesitant but decided to go as she felt it was an opportunity she didn’t want to miss, and I get it if I was 19 if want to hang out with musicians and actors and models too! She was nervous but my son and his girlfriend promised they’d keep an eye on her.
We don’t hear anything most of the night until about half past midnight when my daughter calls me in tears, she says she stepped out as she felt really uncomfortable, that she’d gone to the bathroom and the girl who had got them on the guest list was sniffing coke, older guys were being provocative, she didn’t know where son or his girlfriend were. I told her to call him and get him to either put her in a cab back to the hotel or take her home, she was panicking and not used to London at all and nervous of being in a cab alone late at night.
Typically he didn’t answer, she tried the girlfriend too no answer, we tried them both. We then told her to go back in and find him but the security guard wouldn’t let her unless the girl who she was a guest off (so girlfriends friend) came out and verified who she was and let her in. I’m not sure if this is standard practice but obviously, my DD doesn’t know this girl at all and had no way of contacting this girl and the security guard wasn’t helpful at all. My daughter was panicking and a group of girls walking by noticed and helped her get a cab back to the hotel. Luckily she’s here with us now and while shaken up she’s okay. We have always taught our kids to never be around people doing drugs and had a “fly with the crows, shot with the crows” mantra. My daughter said this is the first time she’d ever actually seen anyone doing lines of cocaine and the men were being so sleazy.
We still haven’t heard from my son which makes me think he hasn’t even noticed that she isn’t there!!

AIBU to be absolutely disgusted with him and beyond angry? He knew that his sister was new to all of this and promised to look out for her! My husband thinks it’s unfair to ask him to babysit his adult sister and she just shouldn’t have gone if she wasn’t going to be able to handle it. He thinks it was naive of me to think models, actors and musicians wouldn’t be doing drugs.

Having been looking after myself on nights out even before 18, I can sort of see why some posters are not sympathetic. But my first time in a nightclub wasn’t with a large group where I hardly knew any of them and the two people I did know got separated from me and didn’t come looking. I expect I would have been a bit freaked out if that had been my first experience of a night club. I hope she’s feeling calmer now and that there were some bits of the night she enjoyed.

Did your DS know just how much his sister needed hand holding? It’s one thing to agree to keep an eye on an adult sibling so she has a good time and another to be necessary to her getting home without help and not having a panic attack. It may not have occurred to him, for instance, that she wouldn’t know not to leave the club without telling him.

If he thought he was just keeping an eye on her to make sure she enjoyed herself, not to ensure she could navigate being out at night in London, I think being furious with him may be over the top. Disappointed/annoyed, fair enough. Though I do think him not trying to contact her when he can’t have seen her around the club for at least a few hours by now(?) is potentially a sign of dumping his sister without a care. But you need to find out why before you can judge on that front. It’s possible he was dealing with a crisis of his own. Edit as just read your last post - that’s not a totally unreasonable response of his if he thought he was there to see that she had a good time rather than to make sure she could cope, though I think it shows a lack of empathy for how a young woman who hasn’t been out at night much might feel.

Agree with another poster, though, that you shouldn’t make this into something too big or you run the risk of instilling the idea that she can’t cope. Instead, go over how she did manage, in the end, to get back okay. How she could do it again, if she needed, more easily. That she got groped, but she got out of there so nothing worse could happen. That she’d know what to expect next time. Etc. Don’t go on to her about how her brother should have been there as though that’s what it takes for a woman to go out at night.

So still livid at your son?
All still his fault? Not that of your dd who ran off not telling anyone where she was going?
I don't think you or her want to hear a version of events where she's not a poor baby, traumatised by her bad, abandoning brother and his awful gf.

It annoys me to hear that bouncers are still pulling this shite, making young people be separated from.a group when they don't allow them to get their friends. Used to happen 30 years ago before mobile phones. Tossers.

It sounds like a misunderstanding to me. People who have been drinking, which I presume your son was, aren't the best and keeping track of time of people!

I'm sorry about the handsy men in the club. I used to hate that when younger. She can push them off her if she is uncomfortable and I would teach her that.

And it's bollocks that you don't need to look after other adults on a night out. Glad I'm not in your friendship group. It's 30 years since we were 19 but we'd look out for one another when we were 19 or now.

Your son's version of events sounds normal. He thought she was with someone he knew and then someone said she'd gone home.
In a nightclub it takes a while to find people and they don't hear their phones.
Your daughter overreacted. Men touching her waist is not really a huge deal certainly not groping.
I hope you listened to your son or is he still the villain in your eyes? Does your daughter have plans for university? If so you need to help build her confidence.

As a father with a son and two daughters, I would be absolutely furious with my son if he didn't look out for his sisters on any night out anywhere. I would also be angry if he did not look out for any of his friends in the same way. Whether we like it or not the world is a much scarier place for our daughters than it is for our sons.

She needs to learn some resilience. I can easily see how her brother would think all is well as she was only at the loo. Maybe he also nipped to the loo.
She could have tried to find him, or his gf or any of the people at dinner, a hand on a waist as someone squishes past in a nightclub is not sexual assault.
It's normal.

I get she panicked, but you have failed a little at parenting - she should know how to call a black hack (safer than Uber) she could have asked security to get her a cab, she could have explained to security that she was with brother & girlfriend & a stranger to London.

As long as the person doing drugs wasn't pushing them on her, then it's not a big deal. She really really needs to get resilient.

It's totally fine if it's not her scene but she shouldn't freak out so badly and panic. She should always have a plan. Even a night out in a small town can go rogue if a chum cops off & disappears.

Spare £20 in shoe for taxi, mobile always charged.

She handled this all wrong. Brother probably less than perfect but he could easily have been walking around club looking for her, whilst she was outside having a panic.

Not sons fault or gf
She's an adult, don't baby her.

I'm with you @maxtheblackcat
Your ds should have behaved in a mire protective manner appropriate to your dd's experience. He's running with a fast crowd and your dd isn't. I'm a bit shocked a "big brother" didn't feel a bit more responsibility. Why wasn't he texting her to find out where she was and if she was ok and texting you if he didn't hear from her? In my circle we always kept an eye on each other and any guy in our group always was someone we could rely on for help and to make sure sleazy guys kept away. It's just about decency, not being overbearing. Your daughter sounds like a young, naive 19 and he should know that. Make me wonder what he's doing?

I think you could have responded better in this situation, OP. You could have calmly talked her through getting a taxi, kept her steady and got her home with a little less drama.

It's clearly disappointing that DS failed in his caretaking role but, tbh, you and DD seem to have expected a bit much of him. He can't keep her handcuffed to his side, and it isn't at all surprising that he wasn't answering his phone in the middle of a busy club.

I'm really sorry DD's first London night out ended up scaring her - she was right to go, as it sounds like the girlfriend has interesting connections. It's just unlucky that she got freaked out this time. She'll be more in charge of herself next time 🙂

Female Friends looking out for you is different.

Do you have an older brother? If you do, Did your older brother ever look out for you in a nightclub?

Most brothers will not do that

I agree with your DH and most of the posters here. Your DD may be sheltered but surely she's seen films, tv, music videos etc where people go to clubs. This is all within the realms of normal and nothing to freak out about. As for this:

Though she has said she was also scared as she’s heard horror stories of girls being abused in cabs and Ubers.

She needs to get some perspective, and more experience of being responsible for herself, not less. Nothing actually went wrong tonight. This all needs reframing instead of making it into some trauma.

Again female friends looking out for each other is different.

No brother wants to babysit his kid sister

THANK YOU.

How do woman without the strong, brave Luke Skywalker type in their life to rescue them cope?
Ahh.. we little ladies shouldn't really be going out at night without a male relative or caretaker to rescue us! Best stay inside rather than go out unchaperoned!

Its Better to be wise , than be totally naive.

Of course men grabbing you to dance and drug taking goes on in lots of nightclubs

I think OP that this went tits up because your DD panicked. I don’t think your DS did much wrong.

In these kinds of environments you’re not always within sight of each other. Your DS had made arrangements so that she would be safe - she took herself outside which isn’t on him. I think it’s excessive to suggest that a 19 yr old woman needed to be within her brother’s eyesight at all times. As far as he was concerned, she was with members of the group - and she could have gone to find him. It might have taken a while because clubs are big, noisy, and dark but he was in there, nothing had changed.

I don’t understand why your DD ran off panicked. Running outside because someone was going to do drugs is an extreme reaction.

And men “putting their hands on her waist” isn’t assault. Or groping. People go to clubs to pick up partners, and even if not, lots of people are happy to dance with strangers. It’s crowded and dark, and the usual rules of conduct go out of the window. Certainly I wouldn’t expect someone to grab my boobs or genitals etc, but a hand on a back, waist etc is harmless. It’s difficult to hear and you’re all squeezed in together so it’s important to view what happened in context. In clubs people are much more tactile because it’s squashed and very difficult to strike up a conversation easily. What might be sleazy behaviour in everyday situations - ie/putting a hand on a waist without consent - really isn’t the same in a club.

Of course, not everyone will like these kinds of environments. I’m really not a fan myself even though I’ve been to many clubs over the years. And I don’t do drugs. So maybe a lesson learned for your DD, this isn’t for her just yet, or maybe ever. And that’s fine.

I can imagine being stuck outside the club and unable to get back in, and in a strange city must have been jarring.

But I would say that even given her age, in the absence of any additional needs, your DD was unable to deal with the situation in the way that most young women her age would have been able to. It might be an idea to work on her resilience and her anxiety.

Maybe worth having a think about your own tendencies too - your responses on this thread suggest you tend to catastrophise so maybe your DD is picking up on that? This feels as if it’s been blown up into a much bigger deal than it needed to be.

Tomorrow is another day and I hope your DD is able to reflect on what she could have done differently to help her deal with unexpected situations in the future.

Onwards and upwards.

So after your DS update, do you still think he's at fault?
Your DD is the one who panicked and ran outside, at 19 she really needs to get a grip and stop behaving like a child that needs other adults to sort her out.

I get why you're angry. But she's 19, not 15. I know she's sheltered but she is an adult.
Many 19 year olds are off travelling in their gap years and will definitely see a lot worse than people doing coke and will need to organise much more complicated travel than getting themselves in a cab.
Having said that, the brother should have kept an eye on her. I wouldn't be furious, I'd be annoyed and maybe worried (is he ok?).

Not in my experience. Please see how I worded my post.

@Mumtobabyhavoc
any guy in our group always was someone we could rely on for help and to make sure sleazy guys kept away.
why is his night out about looking after other adults?
Did you ladies never go out without a big man to look after you?
I wonder sometimes how a lot of ppl on MN actually navigate life.

Sorry, just seen your update. No, I don't think your son is at fault. That all makes sense to me.
While your daughter is probably alarmed - many many many young people in London do coke. That doesn't mean your son is, that doesn't mean your daughter should. But her reaction was a bit over the top and childish.

She abandoned him not vice versa. Was he expected to wait outside the toilet every time she went? No reason to be angry at anyone, or to whip up drama.

At least she's home safe and didn't have any coke. It's absolutely rife in london. Id be surprised if young rich models musicians and actors who are at a fancy club weren't snorting it.

I don’t understand some of the responses here @maxtheblackcat

I’m old, but went for a night out last weekend and made sure my friend got home safely. I wouldn’t have left her.

Was there a discussion with brother beforehand? Don’t abandon your sister etc?