Does anyone else feel this way about the education system in the uk?

[Greengreenga]

My DH was privately educated, I was not. We have one dc due to start school next September so the search for a school has begun. I have always been adamant that I do not want my child to go to a private school. I get that they are brilliant in many ways but I feel very politically strongly that our support should be with the state sector. I want my child to know real people and not the top tiny percent of privilege.

Anyway… we have now looked at 5 of the closest state schools. I have been shocked. It’s not what I remember from my experience of school. These classes were chaos. In all of the schools we went to. The buildings were in an absolute state. Just the feel of the places was so awful. In two of the schools we looked at, supply teachers were in nearly all the classes, is this normal now? These were all rated outstanding bar one that was satisfactory. Three of them are meant to be really good options too, so I have no idea where it goes from there.

DH convinced me to look at the local private school. It’s so incredibly different on every level. There was calmness, order, focus. Although DH won’t push me to change my mind about private I know he would be over the moon if I agreed to it. I now feel so conflicted. I will also be hugely embarrassed if we chose to go private after everything negative I have very publicly said about the private sector for many years.

I feel shit about it. Am I jeprodisring our child’s future for my own moral compass to stay in tact? I don’t know anymore.

On the whole private schools have much better behaved children for the simple reason that they'd get rid of them if they weren't. Pressure from other parents, who are paying huge fees, would be brought to bear pretty quickly if a child was disrupting lessons on a regular basis. I wish state schools had this power - obvs they couldn't be that quick-acting, but the situation has swung much too far in the direction of no consequences for sustained bad behaviour. Parents and children know schools can't get rid of them.

Mine were state-educated, as I was, but I worked in private schools and it was satisfying to see highly disruptive children (rare) dealt with very promptly.

I find it the opposite. In the 90s when I went to school, the comp across the road from my house was rough and scary. I left after 2 years to go to a better place.

Private sch is not an option for us, so I was very nervous about sending DD off into Y7 but I have been pleasantly surprised. House points (my old comp didn't bother), lots of rewards/incentives/praise for good work (my DD likes to hear it), enrichment activities by the truck load (none of this at my comp unless you did sports- by which I mean football).

In private schools it often depends on who is doing the disrupting. A clever child who is bored will he tolerated longer than an average child who’s struggling.

Where I worked a boy brought a knife into school. I don't think anyone seriously believed he meant to use it - he was just an idiot. But that's not the point.

His parents were called into school within the hour and the boy was out that very day. Oh, that state schools could do the same.

Drug possession/knives/proven racist behaviour in the school I worked at meant pretty much instant expulsion..

Private sch is not an option for us, so I was very nervous about sending DD off into Y7 but I have been pleasantly surprised. House points (my old comp didn't bother), lots of rewards/incentives/praise for good work (my DD likes to hear it), enrichment activities by the truck load (none of this at my comp unless you did sports- by which I mean football).

Totally agree that enrichment activities are important, and not just sporty ones. Cultural and scientific things should be available too. Also music for those who don't learn an instrument - orchestral and other concerts and low-key recitals in school etc.

I hated the 'Gifted and Talented' initiative - don't know if it's still going?? Enrichment outside the curriculum should be available to any student who wants it, not just those designated 'G & T' by some nefarious means.

I'm not sure what you mean by "normal," as, surely, you'd need very high incomes indeed to be able to spare enough for school fees and have enough left over for rent or a mortgage on top of living expenses. It's feasible for one child, perhaps.

The average household income is around £35,000 a year (after tax), so there's probably not much left for a normal family from that after school fees. If it's an average fee of about £16,000 a year, it's feasibly possible for a normal family with one child, as they'd be left with 19,000 a year for rent/mortgage, food, fares and bills.

This is exactly my experience of our state secondary which was supposed to be one of the best in the area. Terrible violence with no consequences and endless disruption to lessons. After a year and a bit we were forced to swap to private. The change in behaviour was night and day. Could not be any more different. If you have an excellent local state school you are very lucky. For the rest of us it’s private if you can afford it, or the risk of traumatised kids if you can’t. It’s an absolute abomination.

So you chose to ignore the SEND issue and give no evidence for the for the claim the majority gets paid by grandparents NB my parents are dead.

However the misuse of stats is a heinous offence 😮😉
The average UK income in Sept 2024 was £35,829. You claim this is an household income. Why?

1. Why do you assume a one earner house household? Have you heard both parents are allowed to work? (yes a lot of kids like me were brought up by one, but for your statistical purposes that’s irrelevant)
2. This is an average so <50% earn above this average

I'm just going to put it out there. I don't believe in public tax subsidising private schools. ( I am in Australia). You want a private school - you pay for it. Here we have schools that are getting millions in funding and have huge grounds and actual stadiums, and state schools that don't even have air conditioning in the class rooms ( in summer you can easily have a few days of 40 degrees) . Disgraceful. You want your own education then pay for it!

Except public tax doesn't subsidise indy schools in the UK. There are no subsidies. Parents who choose indy pay for that education through the school fees, which aren't subsidied by the tax payer.
Education is VAT exempt by law in EU as a matter of principle. We left the EU but the principle remains, or it did until Labour. This is a tax on parents, not schools. Parents who already pay their taxes for state services.
The fact that governments choose to underfunded state education is not the fault of indy schools/parents.

On the whole private schools have much better behaved children for the simple reason that they'd get rid of them if they weren't

Are you saying that private school kids are well behaved through fear of expulsion? Because that wasn't my experience. My experience was that the schools ethos was that it was cool to do well, academically and in other areas. They would make it their business to find something that every pupil could do well in, often working with the parents to nurture whatever it was, academics, music, sport, drama,.public speaking, entrepreneurship. Once a teen realises they can do something well,.they grow in confidence and start to enjoy school = better behaviour.

I can't imagine state schools have the time or resources to do this.

Public taxes do not subsidise independent schools in the UK. Parents pay the fees.

State school it is then 🤷‍♀️

I send my children to a very small independent prep. Most other parents (like us) are “normal” families who sacrifice a lot to afford to privately educate their children. Despite most of MN warped opinion, our children’s school is not full of elite upper class snobs. It’s a small, warm, welcoming and inclusive school.

Your hypocrisy is sickening. Private schools shouldn’t exist, but as soon as I find one I like for my child suddenly they’re ok???!! What BS. It’s people like you that go around spouting nonsense about how all private school represent the most privileged in society, whereas we actually have less money than lots of our friends who’s children are state educated, we just choose to spend our money on school rather than cars and big houses. Please don’t send your children to private school because quite frankly, I don’t want to risk your child ending up at the same school as mine.

Dd went to state primary then private secondary and I always remember one of the primary dads being all cocky in the playground, laughing at my choice to go private and boasting about how well his older dc had done at the local state. Imagine my surprise when he turned up at sports day in year 9, loudly extolling the virtues of the private school once he'd moved his kid there.

Some people should learn not to have such a confident and brash opinion about things they have no practical experience of.

The private school where I work has puplis from a wide range of backgrounds.
Some are on full bursaries, some pay full fees and some in between.
It's a selective, academic school and they all get along together.
We have parents that don't work, have 'normal' jobs or are surgeons etc.

at my daughter's state school there's:

-the opportunity to learn a new instrument (she's learning the sax) for a fee but bursaries available
-orchestra
-choir
-LAMDA drama
trampolining
-STEAM club
-art club
-writing club
-debate club
-school play
-various sports clubs
-skateboarding (for a fee)
-gymnastics (for a fee)

Back in the 90s, we had some of these... instruments, choir and school play, but none of the other stuff.

We can't afford private school but as we're not on the poverty line we don't qualify for a bursary at any of the ones nearby.

For a scholarship, most offer something like small discount but not full scholarships. There's one very fancy private that does offer a scholarship place, my DD's friend got it... she had grade 8 in two instruments plus had recvd tuition most of her school life... most children can't compete with that.

most of us have no choice, that rather brash father is rare in that he does have a choice.

You've got that data confused. That's the average wage, not household income.

I was going by the ONS average household income:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2023

I'm not convinced that primary schools - particularly reception should be calm the majority of the time.

The children in reception should be free to choose activities and learn through play for a large part of the day.

Does your dc go to nursery or pre school? Is that calm?

Did the children seem happy? Settled? Have you spoken to any local parents?

Seagall · Today 06:18
Are you saying that private school kids are well behaved through fear of expulsion?

No - not at all. I was responding to a specific point, but of course that's not the whole picture.

But I'm sticking my head above the parapet and will get it shot off, I'm sure! I think that inclusivity at any cost is the problem with the UK state education system. Special schools have largely disappeared and teachers are expected to cope with nearly all of society's issues in their classrooms as well as deliver a crowded curriculum. I once had 12 children in my class who either had diagnosed special educational needs, or were suspected of having them. With no extra help I felt I was not giving any of the children in my class what they needed, and I know that wasn't my fault. Inclusivity has become a dogma which must not be questioned, but I think it's a disaster for everyone.

I could rant on about this for ages, but I'll leave it there.

My point about independent schools (I've taught in them - I'm not knocking them) is that they are free to select their intake and of course that makes things much easier and simpler. In state schools it seems almost impossible to have any boundaries in terms of behaviour. It's really hard to exclude a child, and then there'll be an appeal panel who'll reinstate them. How can schools operate in this situation? And there's pressure on heads NOT to make a big fuss. A friend of mine had a knife pulled on her in class but got no support from management - they wanted it hushed up (bad publicity for the school). She was very lucky to be in the position where she could just walk out of the job that very day and hang the consequences - few teachers would be.

I wish state school teachers would fight for their own interests - not just those of the students, which is always the stated reason for any action. This isn't as nasty as it sounds. If teachers insisted on better treatment and demanded respect as other professions do, their working conditions would improve and the benefits would trickle down to their students. Teachers, like nurses, sometimes allow the system to dump every problem on them. But they potentially have huge power and they should use it. How would any of us manage without teachers?

Yet the ONS also say "The average full-time salary in the UK in 2023 was £34,963". Most households using indy schools have both parents working full time in order to pay for the fees.

No, but the teacher should be in control of the class. That doesn't mean silence, or repression. Of course there'll be times when things get noisy, busy, exciting and active - but that's different from chaos. Not blaming the teachers - they are often faced with an impossible task.