To think that gay and lesbian people should be able to have a conference in peace

[nothingcomestonothing]

Transactivists have tried to disrupt the LGBA conference by releasing insects into the venue. It's disgusting . Because they don't think gay men and lesbians should be allowed to meet peacefully without them.

No one is stopping transpeople from having events by themselves, why shouldn't gay men and lesbians be able to meet if that's what they want to do? It's just repackaged homophobia - same sex attracted people aren't allowed to have their own conference.

https://x.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1844763982453670350

Do you think there are times when “gender” “trumps” “sex”? What circumstances might those be?

How is it othering black people?

PIggle, what do you mean by "gender" in this sentence?

"All people must also be allowed to define their gender as feels authentic to them and have their gender respected."

Do you mean "sex"?

So if my sexuality is that I want to exclusively date women who have vaginas, I have no interest in dating someone with a penis, that’s fine.

But if someone who has a penis tells me they are a woman then saying that you don’t want to date them due to them having a penis then I’m wrong.

Oh, and if you are acting all confused about the idea of gay male saunas then I can only assume you are very young.

@PiggleToes of course there are times when sex trumps gender. When I have a smear test, I should absolutely be able to request a practitioner by sex not gender, and more importantly, expect this request to be respected and not reinterpreted by someone who sees gender as more important than sex.

It is impossible to write policy and legislation based on gender (which is nebulous and unprovable) and we need to be crystal clear about what we are basing things on. If a company wishes to make their policies gender based then that is their choice but they must make that clear to their customers.

As well as the fact that you actually need a smear test - because your sex is female and you have a cervix.

@PiggleToes
You say:

Here’s a radical idea- how about neither one “trumps” the other , that they are both simply different characteristics of a person. (Sexuality being another characteristic). And we should be able to describe these characteristics and organise our society in a way that respects them all, and that nobody should be ever coerced into having sex or dating anyone they don’t want to.

But that is exactly what LGBA say. Stonewall says gender trumps sex, hence the comment about lesbians not wanting to date male people is like being a sexual racist. Because Stonewall means that the gender of the male people is more important than the same sex attraction of the female people. LGBA says leave same sex attracted people alone, when they want to organise around same sex attraction. You just made the argument why these transactivists were wrong in their actions.

What those spoiled children did was unconscionable. Carrying and then releasing insects in a conference room.

You have to wonder at the fragility of an ideology which cannot bear anyone with a differing opinion meeting. It’s not as if those young women (they were mostly women) were being forced to attend against their will.

YANBU.

And I’d love to hear a rational, evidence-based argument in their favour.

All people must also be allowed to define their gender as feels authentic to them and have their gender respected. This is not a trivial right- it is fundamental to the person.

I think we'd all agree to that, with the caveat that other people are not affected by it.

And that's the problem isn't it?

We would ALL be happy to agree that some people hold gender as more important than sex, while others regard sex as more important than gender. And that's fine and dandy.

Except where those things contradict. Which they do in certain circumstances as has been outlined.

And that's why we need organisations like LBGA, to ensure that where those rights clash, the views of those that regard sex as immutable (remember this is view that it is legally reasonable to hold) are heard.

Gay men and Lesbians are certainly getting sick of these TRA's and their nonsense.

I always get FOMO when I see footage from LGBA events. I donate as a supporter but as a straight woman, feel I shouldn’t intrude on events. It’s not my world.

But I’m envious! Glad it was a good conference and you had a good time.

You can’t have rights without solid definitions to enforce those rights. You are basically saying that people can define themselves as they feel which means that no one can have their rights protected.

lesbians are same sex attracted. They only like people with the same bodies that they do. Likewise heterosexual people like the opposite sex bodies. Those are clearly defined categories with rights that can be enforced. You saying well I define lesbianism as any person ‘feeling’ like a women being attracted to someone else the same means that the first group cannot have their rights enforced. There can only be one definition of being homosexual and one for heterosexual.

As for gender- I absolutely respect the right of people to dress as they please. If someone wants to portray themselves as the opposite gender and go about their business then I don’t mind one jot. That to me is respecting gender based rights. I do not believe they are the opposite sex though and my sex based rights should be respected. Spaces that involve bodily consent such as toilets, changing rooms should be confined to people who are the same sex. I do not see why if this is respected everyone can’t get along.

of course there are times when sex trumps gender

This seems to be an obvious statement to you. It’s not an obvious statement to me. To me, gender and sex are simply different characteristics of a person, it makes little sense to “pit” them against each other.

If it is so obvious to you that sometimes sex trumps gender, I’m wondering if it is equally obvious to you that there are circumstances where gender trumps sex? What are these?

If you think there aren’t, it seems to me that you are saying that “ gender” as a concept is less legitimate or important than “sex” as a concept?

If groups like Press for Change and Stonewall had started from the premise that people had the right to single sex spaces and that the definitions of L and G were still same sex attraction and that was absolutely fine, and had pushed for third spaces for trans people or for them to be safe & respected in the changing rooms, hospital wards for their own sex, things would have gone very differently.

@PiggleToes stop waffling in your posts and answer the question (and be specific with yes or no).

Lesbians, same sex attracted women, do they have share a space with transwomen, the hetero male transwomen, who view themselves as lesbians?

Can lesbians clubs exist without having a hetero male transwomen in them?

You were also asked by @Ereshkigalangcleg is it ok for gay men to want a male only sauna (thus excluding transmen)?

You have dodged answering this question throughout this thread.

I'm as pro trans as you can be, and differ with many on here on this in believing that yes you can be "born in the wrong body", but you avoiding answering the question (same one put in various forms) means you don't have an argument.

Do you think there are times when “gender” “trumps” “sex”? What circumstances might those be?

I don't, no, because I don't subscribe to the quasi religious ideology that a person's self image is more important than their actual sex when it comes to sex based issues. But that's just me, plenty of gender critical people think both are important!

of course there are times when sex trumps gender

This seems to be an obvious statement to you. It’s not an obvious statement to me

Well of course there are times when sex trumps gender. Requesting a smear test from a bio female, getting changed with people of the same sex as you, holding a female only evening, hosting a lesbian-only event, sports teams, female or male only awards/shortlists. And many many more that I'm sure even you could think of.

that the definitions of L and G were still same sex attraction

the LGBA do not get to define what being lesbian and gay is for all LBG people.
Most LGB people do not subscribe to the ideology of the LGBA. Many LGB people are trans! And many more are trans inclusive, and do not see trans people (or the recognition of gender as important) as a threat to their sexuality or identity

At a trans conference, I'll accept that gender can trump sex, as long as there aren't other groups at the venue who require single sex facilities. If everyone in the building has bought into the ideological position that some males can be classed as women, fine, crack on.

Most LGB people do not subscribe to the ideology of the LGBA. Many LGB people are trans! And many more are trans inclusive, and do not see trans people (or the recognition of gender as important) as a threat to their sexuality or identity

I don't think LGBA have ever claimed to speak for all LGB people have they?

Than what’s your definition ? There can only be one definition that is legally enforceable. You can’t have a definition that is different for different groups. What would you put in the dictionary for the meaning of the word lesbian?

Many LGB people are trans!

Yes, you said that before but what does it mean? If a biologically male transwoman is only attracted to women, I’d say that made the transwoman straight. Are you saying that the transwoman would be a lesbian?

Right.
You dont think gender is a thing.
You dont recognise or respect the legitimacy of trans experience.
This is the issue and the problem and this is why trans activists fight against organisations like the LGBA whose purpose is to promote exactly this view- the illegitimacy of trans people and their experience.

the LGBA do not get to define what being lesbian and gay is for all LBG people.

The definition of LGB predates by a considerable time the setting up of LGBA in 2019 or so.

@EmpressaurusDeiGatti quite clearly is referring to the gay rights movement which existed when the trans rights movement was in its infancy.