To think cry it out is kinder than gentler methods

[notarisingfan]

I’m getting to the point where I need to sleep train my 15 month old. I’m getting hardly any sleep and it’s getting me down.

The problem is gentle methods just wind her up. If she knows I’m there she just keeps screaming and trying to get to me. Her brother was the same and gentle methods didn’t work for him either.

AIBU to think cry it out is long term probably kinder … it worked after one night with ds.

I agree OP, it was certainly the case for us. We hired a sleep consultant when my eldest was about 15 months because I hadn’t slept for longer than 3 hours at a time since before he was born. Co sleeping had him waking hourly wanting feeding so that was a no go as well.

The consultant recommended we go in and resettle, gradually reducing how we resettle, eg. patting & shhing, then next time just patting and so on. However we never got past the first step as it caused complete hysterics for hours. We kept going for a week, no one had slept by the end of it so on night 7 when he woke crying an hour after bedtime I sat outside his room in silence. 15 minutes later he was asleep. It was a miracle!

He only woke once a night after that compared to his previous 4 wakes and a few months later he slept through, still does. I don’t understand how crying until his throat was sore for hours on end is less cruel than crying a bit for 15 mins just because I was in the room with him watching him suffer!

About a year ago I came onto Mumsnet looking for advice about sleep training my baby as he was a terrible sleeper. Was trying to gentle parent but ultimately he would be screaming in my arms every bed time.

Thankfully someone on here told me to go for it with the sleep training. I am forever grateful.
Within 2 nights of sleep training he was sleeping through. It was the best thing I did for him, me and my relationship.

It was only when I started sleeping again that I realised how ridiculous things had been. I was depressed and now a much happier engaged parent due to being rested.
We need to recognise the fact often mums are working/have other children/other commitments and busy lives meaning we do need to rest. The consequences can be far reaching. Please have no guilt.

Yanbu op. My DC were exactly the same. We did the faster cio method with elder one. It vastly improved his sleep and he's still a great sleeper and a happy, confident child.

Younger one had been ill as a tiny baby & for too long we were paranoid about things, so did more controlled crying/gentler approaches. All it did was make it worse for longer- that reassurance trap definitely kicked in and it just delayed her learning that nothing bad would happen if she fell asleep by herself.

If you do nothing OP her sleep will get better on its own. It’s not at all unusual to still wake in the night at that age. It is very unlikely that she will be doing this at 6yo.

This is not true. I know loads of 6yo who are a nightmare, won't go to sleep without mum lying next to them, still getting in bed with parents at 1am etc. A lot of the people who say they've never let their child cry don't admit openly but are often sleeping some or all of the night with the DC, or sitting ages in their room at bedtimes while they fall asleep. These options can be bad for parents wellbeing in so many ways

It's kinder than having a constantly tired fractious child and exhausted parent. Sometimes as a parent you have to do what is best for a child, even though it upsets them in the very short term.
Like vaccinations, giving them antibiotics, brushing knotted hair, saying no to sweets etc, etc etc.

This.
Although I do understand your frustration, op. Ds1 was a fairly good sleeper, between regressions, he would give me 5-7 hours of sleep a night, then slept through the night at 17 months old.
DS2 was / is a nightmare sleeper. Every half an hour for months and months. Finally moved into 2-3 hours but even then it would be 2x 2-3 hrs and then every 20 minutes. He's 21 months now and his sleeping drastically improved at 18 months. Not perfect, but he gave me a handful of nights of sleeping through, and his wakings went down to two where I could also easily get him back to sleep again, unlike before where it could take me up to 30 minutes to resettle.

I finally feel I'm getting some sleep again. He's not reliably sleeping through but it's so much better than even at 15 months...so try to hang in there though I know it's easier said than done. At 17 months with him, he went through a week or two of being awake for hours in the middle of the night. It was awful. I couldn't have imagine a month later he'd be giving me a few nights of solid sleep.
I breastfeed/fed and coslept/cosleep with both of my boys. Sleep is developmental and cry it out just teaches them you're not coming back. It's a waiting game unfortunately (normal but absolutely exhausting)

I think you may have come here to basically ask "is cry it out okay?". I wanted to know the same thing. There's a lot of research to say it is NOT in any way psychically damaging in the long run. Recent research. All the stuff that says it is, is either anecdotal or very old.

I think on those ground and considering what you're describing, it's okay. I also got to the point where I was so exhausted that driving was dangerous and I was failing at work. Dd was screaming all day with exhaustion and falling asleep all over the place, making night time sleep worse. We sleep trained. It worked very quickly and the change in all of us was night and day. Dd was happy and way more curious and getting more out of life because she wasn't clingy and screaming with exhaustion all the time. We were better parents and better able to function, our ability to work improved markedly.

If you've tried everything else, just consider it another tool (although not a very nice one, no one enjoys it - that's parenting sometimes). The way we saw it is that when she wasn't sleep trained, she was calling the shots (out of habit) and babies and toddlers just don't know ow what's best for them, most of the time and letting them do that can be damaging. My baby also once tried to shove a USB cable into a plug hole and I didn't let her do that - she cried and wasn't happy but it was another scenario in which I made her unhappy by prioritising what was best for her. And yet because she was naturally waking up, we were letting her dictate what was best for her...Sometimes as the adult you have to correct a situation for the good of your child.

If I were you, I'd do it. I did and I don't regret it. Dd cried for a few nights but we saved her years of crying at night because of it. We allowed her the sleep she needed to develop properly. We gave ourselves some sleep back, so that we could be better parents. The pros outweighed the cons in our case - the con was her crying, which she would have done anyway. 🤷‍♀️

I think the way I think about it is that in theory the gentle approach is not necessarily about "less tears" but about being there to support the child through the change. Eg being in room may equal more tears (as they are fuming you aren't picking them up). But cry it out (eg extinction method, leave the room no returning) they may cry less overall but they are alone and not supported through this. So it's the parental reassurance that makes it "gentle" rather than less tears?

But unless you are willing to co-sleep for years, the bit 90% of kids struggle with is the bit where you leave & they have to go to sleep by themselves. And all the supportive build up in the world isn't going to get away from the fact that at some stage they have to go it alone. You can't ever "support" them through the final step where they go to sleep alone, by definition they have to learn to do it without you. If you do it fast and early on i think its less traumatic than if they've spent all their early years thinking mummy always stays until i fall asleep & if i cry she won't go.

Could you get her a double floor bed and cosleep that way? She doesn’t risk falling out of bed and your husband isn’t in the bed so you have more sleep?

Disturbed sleep is rough and luckily I’ve not experienced it, but can totally see how you desperate you are.

I was pressured into sleep training by family but stuck to my own guns and refused to do it. I picked up my son and breastfed him to sleep every time he woke and then slowly over time he slept longer and longer. There’s lots of research that CIO can be detrimental to emotional attachment, so that’s my reason why. I also couldn’t stand the crying, so don’t know how I could listen to hours and hours of it.

You say you don’t pick up to resettle, why? Could you let her fall asleep on you then transfer to her bed?

@YourLastNerve I think that's silly, of course you can. I have spent the first couple of years co-sleeping with mine, then a bit longer putting them to bed and leaving. They get used to you not being there when they wake up and coming to find you (hardly ever with mine, once out of the toddler years they're good sleepers) and then one day they fall asleep fine without you. If they know they can get you if they really need you, that is supporting. Of course you can support someone to learnt to do something on their own.

You're mum. You know how your child reacts. And you know that you're breaking.

Go for it. Do what you need to do to help your little one settle. And please don't feel bad about it. Being sleep deprived is a special sort of hell.

(FWIW, most of Mumsnet will give you the advice above about everything baby and toddler EXCEPT sleeping. I say ignore them)

I think you know your own child. For some children, slow, softly softly approaches absolutely can just draw the whole thing out, and they settle down pretty quickly after crying for a bit. For others, they can cry hysterically and indefinitely!

This is a load of rubbish.

I breastfed my son every time he woke and he’d fall asleep on me and he slept through the night from 7 months.

He’s just over 2 and every night he pretty much falls asleep on me and I then pop him into bed. He still sleeps through the night, with the occasional night waking up due to illness and ends up in our bed.

I think you need to reassure them you will return and over time they feel more comfortable to fall asleep on their own as they feel secure.

OP I think what you are doing is less kind than the gentle methods because you're not really doing them. You're not rocking her or resettling her properly and you're not co-sleeping with her and you're not sleeping either. I don't think it's gentle if you refuse to cuddle them, it's already sleep training. From her point of view what is the point of you being there looking at her? Of course she's upset. If mine could see me there and not get a proper cuddle at 15 months they'd go crazy. And I'd be there ages. I'd be so knackered. So yeah, I think you're better off biting the bullet and sleep training although I disagree with it, cos what you're doing isn't working for anyone.

I co-sleep with a rail in a a big bed, totally get that it's not for you, I do it because that's how I get enough sleep to survive - as babies and toddlers mine are just high needs. But I accept I'm doing it for the first two and a half to three years till they are developmentally ready to stop and that's really not for everyone.

Well, I'll get flamed and told I'm the anti- christ but I just left both of mine to cry it out.

None of this going in to settle them back down stuff, that just seems cruel and also they knew I'd be back so they'd just scream even more. For some kids, this method doesn't work.

It took three nights for each child, with shorter amounts of time until they fell asleep. By day 4 they had both worked out that bed and darkness meant no mummy. I could finally sleep and function again

Both are no older teenagers and perfectly fine. Preserve maternal sanity at all costs.

You definitely can support them through it, but it takes a very long time! I went from lying with them, to sitting on the floor next to them, to sitting nearer the door, to popping in and out, and because they knew I was always pottering around very nearby they never felt like they were really on their own. I can see that for some kids this might just wind them up, though.

You will get a lot of different advice on here as some people are really opposed to CIO. We kind of sleep trained both of mine once they weren't wakening up for milk anymore. We mostly tried to let them settle themselves but obviously we would have went in briefly after 5/10mins if they were very distressed. They both did have comforters and dummies though so I guess that was their sleep aid. We felt it was necessary so that both our children could get a full night's sleep (as well as ourselves). I will say that our 2 kids are great sleepers for the most part and we never co-slept (unless sick or scary dream). It's worth a try for your own sanity and it should hopefully benefit your child in the long run as broken sleep isn't as good for them as a full night's sleep would be.

Nope cry it out, controlled crying, gentle methods, all cruel things to do your child. All these experts and authors have done a number on parenting. Selling bullshit to exhausted parents.

The most natural and kind way is co-sleeping, cuddle to sleep, feed to sleep. Just bare with it, it's not forever. Sorry you are struggling.

Yep we were the same way other our daughter and now my son!

goes insane if we stay in the room reassuring him ! So I leave the room and pop back in every few mins gradually leaving him for slightly longer time until I return

never went above a 10 minute crying session and it sorted the sleep out so quickly !

With my daughter I was able to say goodnight and walk out and she happily settled herself to sleep every nap and night within a week

Use Cry It Out - you all need sleep.

I don’t think they learn that you don’t respond, as you will still respond when they are sick or have nightmares - so if they do ‘learn’ that, they will unlearn it.

They do learn to self-settle and to sleep though. Sometimes they work themselves up when they are tired. If you are a happy loving mother all the rest of the time, I don’t think this is unloving at all.

Another one here who just couldn't get along with cosleeping - I've done it on a couple of nights where I was practically hallucinating from tiredness but it means I end up sleeping separately from DH and having a really poor quality of sleep, which for me isn't sustainable.

I sleep trained both of mine for bedtimes (carried on feeding to sleep in the night until I weaned as they were luckily both pretty reliable with this so it was the lowest effort option for me) - with my first I did a version of Ferber, which worked well after 3 nights, but my second was like yours, going in just made it worse so I basically ended up doing CIO - again, a couple of nights and he was perfectly happy being put down in his cot and dropping off.

I absolutely agree with a PP who said some babies are Sarah OS babies and some just aren't! Of friends with babies, many have done some form of CIO/Ferber, and I'm sure across the country the same is true - if it really was the case that it caused awful damage to the attachment between parents and child I think it would be much more apparent than it appears to be...

The advice on MN is usually do what you need to get sleep - which is often said when suggesting cosleeping! - but I think the same is true of sleep training. Good luck, you'll feel like a new woman!

Agree with PP that you can support through this. Ok the final "leave the room" bit you can't, but you can work up to this gradually by moving further away / doing less over time. By this point you've detached the feed, removed the motion, got used to their sleep space - so leaving the room is far less dramatic than if you put them down awake on Night 1.

Bullshit. Read the thread, there are 4yos on here still not sleeping properly. Terrible for their growth, their memory, their immune systems. Scientifically proven to be life-shortening for the parents. Nothing kind about that.

It could be teething at this age so the risk is you leave your child to be in pain crying for ages.

I'd say cosleep but see you don't like it. I'd opt for a floor bed then. My 2 hated the cot and slept much better once we took the sides off (we did it at 14 months)

It’s your decision, but it went against all my instincts as a mother, so I co-slept with mine. They grow out of it eventually. Disrupted sleep isn’t totally unusual with a 15 month old, my middle child was waking 2-3 times a night for milk at that age and i was back at work full time. I get a lot less sleep now they are teens, my terrible sleeper is 20 now and really has been a dream child. But he gave me little sleep for the 1st 2yrs. Other 2 slept better but not totally unusual to get disrupted sleep. If you feel that it’s affecting relationships then it’s your choice to do it, I don’t know about some methods being kinder than others though.

Has she ever slept through? Myself I think cry it out is unnecessary and presuming she has slept 8 hours straight at any point I’d look at what was happening in those days.
it is possible to get into a habit of waking but most babies develop longer sleep if adequately fed, exercised and comfortable.