To think cry it out is kinder than gentler methods

[notarisingfan]

I’m getting to the point where I need to sleep train my 15 month old. I’m getting hardly any sleep and it’s getting me down.

The problem is gentle methods just wind her up. If she knows I’m there she just keeps screaming and trying to get to me. Her brother was the same and gentle methods didn’t work for him either.

AIBU to think cry it out is long term probably kinder … it worked after one night with ds.

I would go in, say good night (literally nothing else) and lie her down.

It's also different when they're older, CIO with a toddler seems more like ignoring a tantrum compared with doing so with a baby too young to know what's going on.

@BoldBiscuit im getting less flack than I thought to be honest. I’m surprised (and encouraged) by how many have said oh yeah … me too!

@Didimum she is only 15 months. She wouldn’t understand that yet.

I kind of wish i had done it earlier. In many ways it’s going to be worse.

You get that you would literally have to wrestle her to lie her down? I don’t mean to sound like I’m having a go at you, I’m not, but that remark shows you don’t really understand what I’m dealing with.

My little one is a few months older and I just went in and cuddled him back to sleep in the rocking chair or brought him into my bed. Hes sleeping through again now (19 months) for now but if he re starts I'll still go to cuddle him.
I will let him cry for about 30 secs before I go in though as sometimes he just does a little cry and then goes back to sleep.
I just can't leave him upset alone by himself he's only this little once and he doesn't understand :-( I feel guilty enough that he's in his own room now!
My friend has done the ignoring thing though and she said he daughter did get better after a few nights but now she's re started.

I think that is a ridiculous assertion. We aren't talking about tiny babies, we're talking an older baby/practically a toddler who needs to be TAUGHT that sleep isn't a scary thing, that they ARE able to do it on their own. As far as mental health goes, you could just as soon say that a lot of mental health issues are caused by folk not getting their needs met within 2 minutes of asserting them because their parents gave them everything they wanted including never letting them cry! I've no idea!

Honestly, seriously, prior to 1970 as a very rough guess a child waking up and screaming for mum was more likely to be smacked than cuddled. I’m obviously not stating every parent did so but generally speaking in the past children and babies were treated more harshly rather than more gently.

You won’t be up with a six year old. You are making excuses to allow yourself to ‘sleep train’.

Your baby is 15 months old and needs their mum/dad for comfort and support to sleep. This is totally natural. I understand you are very tired but this is what happens when you have children. Please, please do not do ‘cry it out’ or any form of ‘sleep training’. Can you try sleeping in the babies bedroom next to their cot? Or try safely doing co-sleeping? You can look on the lullaby trust website for safety co-sleeping tips.

I completely understand where you are coming from OP. We tried gentle sleep training methods (i.e. chair) with my DC from the age of around 6 months. Did not work at all. Tried several times both me and my partner. Then Ferber method/ intervals etc. and each time we would walk in that would set DC off and bedtimes took ages and were really stressful. Then around 11 month mark we tried CIO and it worked. Hard to hear your baby cry but now we all sleep through the night and naptimes don’t involve me rocking DC to sleep for an hour each time. DC still cries a little before each sleep but we are talking about a few minutes and then settles to sleep.

Sending you a hug OP - that sounds super rough. I have followed The Sleep Mums guidance and found it super helpful. They have a book and a really good podcast.

Crying it out is cruel and I say that as someone who's kid still doesn't sleep through the night at 5.

Hi @notarisingfan mine was similar to yours. We attempted the timed method a couple of times but he was just hysterical, so we left it because his sleep wasn’t so bad. It was patchy, but we got enough good nights to get by.

Eventually at about 14 months we had such a bad period (it had been a month with us both taking turns to sleep on the floor of his room each night) we bit the bullet and tried again. We did the timed method again with a quick cuddle and resettle and it worked this time but honestly I’m not sure it was that different to CIO. He didn’t fall asleep because he suddenly calmed down from realising we were always coming back, he fell asleep because he was too exhausted to keep crying and protesting each time. It worked and I’m glad I did it but it certainly didn’t feel gentle!

I’m not sure CIO is kinder than other methods but doesn’t your stance on it change depending on the age of the baby?
a 15 month old is very different to a 4 month old.
for a small baby distress is global, they are alone and desperate and have no understanding that their caregiver will ever return.
there comes a point where they very much know you are next door, and that morning will come and their distress is just upset, frustration, exhaustion.
It made my child much more upset and confused if did more standard withdrawal techniques. But I got to a point where I just knew they felt loved and secure and understood I would return and was asking them to sleep.
I also know my child’s cry. I know what their cry means and their level of distress. My body - like I’m sure for most mothers - responds very physically. I know when my child is exhausted and frustrated but I also know when something more is happening. And I trust myself to respond accordingly.
also, doesn’t it depend once the child is old enough on what they are like. My daughter would cry and get more and more upset when left. I could hear her getting more distressed and so I never left her. My second child, she would cry when out into her cot, but it was like a protest and decreasing in effort and distress.

Well … yes. There is a correlation between those two statements. I’m not saying that I think you’re wrong but I suppose the point is it is possible to argue not sleeping and it’s effects on the child and you are also cruel.

Like many things it is a balancing sort of act.

People pushing co sleeping or sleeping in the same room - it makes no difference to her. She’s just as upset if she wakes up in a bedside cot as in a cot in her own room.

Sorry meant to quote @Jazzjazzyjulez

I have also got the Tommy tippe red light white noise machine that has a cry detector - if he cries it switches itself back on

Possibly I don’t, I am a mum of 3 though and don’t think I’ve failed to get one in a car seat yet etc lol. pin their arms then lie down, no? I’m not saying she’s down when you close the door, she will obviously get back up. If it turns into a wrestling match, then no it’s achieving anything!

But honestly if you think she’d go down if you left her to properly cry it out I don’t think you’d be damaging her in any way. I think a child that sleeps is much more important than ‘kindness’.

it is an exceptionally difficult age to be doing this though. Babies easy, older toddlers can understand what you say. Good luck, have you got support at home for this, it won’t be easy x

I thought CIO was cruel too but also had the experience of gradual withdrawal from the room making my DS worse.

In the end, it was my Mum who staged an intervention. We were at their house and she handed me a glass of wine and said, just leave him to work out that he is actually tired and he will give in. I went in once, lay him back down and restarted his night music and he did go to sleep.

15 years later he's a 6ft strapping teen who is a delight....and sleeps well, obviously has no memory of any of this and we are really close.

It's all very well saying it's cruel but I was back at work full time and literally nodded off on the photocopier one morning. Sleep deprivation is used as a form of torture and one does worry that the guilt tripping women in particular over doing everything "right" is yet another form of control over women's lives.

Do what works for you and your child. If it means everyone gets more sleep and functions then 2 nights of crying it out is far less cruel than months and months of an angry, sleep deprived, depressed mother who's at the end of her tether.

I think you need to parent the baby you have, how you see fit. I have no idea how much you must be struggling but I do believe that you know your baby better than anyone else.

I used to be very against CIO or even gentler methods. I slept with mine until he was three and eventually got him in to a routine of being in his own bed and he is an excellent sleeper. I’m not sure how much we can control this aspect of our babies if I am honest.

So, while CIO wouldn’t be what I would choose I certainly wouldn’t judge you for choosing it and I don’t think your baby will be traumatised for life because of it. I’m sure they still get plenty of cuddles and affection at other times so it’s not like they’re going to be neglected. If you need to do it, then do it. I hope it works out for you.

I’m sure it’s a natural biological desire but is it a NEED? Even if it is unfortunately we don’t live in a world which allows us to cater to this. Most of us have to work full time and our children go to day care and to do that we all need sleep. Sleep deprivation is incredibly bad for physical and mental health.

Co sleeping doesn’t work for many people. I don’t know about those who make it work but when I’m in the same room as my child my senses are on high alert and I’m woken by every sleeping sound they make. They also don’t sleep well as they’re aware of my presence.

If we lived in a world where we could all have one parent not work or both work part time then maybe we’d have the luxury of rolling with the sleepless nights.

Also we all require different levels of sleep. Maybe those of you hanging in there with the sleepless nights just don’t need as much sleep?

I completely agree with you.

It's just another way of shaming women into suffering so that they can be seen to do it the "right" way

My dd now 18 I left her to CIO - it was quite common then. She was similar to your baby op, there was no settling when I went in, just louder crying! We were both exhausted all day. Would have co slept but she was a very aggressive breast feeder who wanted to chomp on my nipple all night. Anyway she cried for 2 nights but then slept so much better and was less fractious during the day (she was a clingy baby who cried a lot in the day as well), she was a lot happier and I wished I’d done it sooner.

Sounds horrible and hard.
Do controlled crying.
Set a timer. Leave for 3 mins and leave the room. Back in to sooth and check child. Put back down in bed. Leave room. Then increase to 5 mins. Repeat soothing. Increase to 10 mins. Repeat soothing. Continue with going in every 10 mins. May take hours the first couple of nights but this method usually works really quickly. Normally within 3-5 nights.

Good god I agree with you! Can’t be bothered to go back and quote the same post you quote but to suggest that so many teens have MH issues because they spent a night or two crying at bed time is ridiculous!
MH issues are complex, there are so many societal issues at play here. There is absolutely no way that an otherwise loved and cared for child will go on to suffer from anxiety and depression because they spent a night or two crying when they were 18 months old!! And I say that as someone who co-slept with my child until 3 and did the longest ever transition to his own bed (that lasted about a year!)

And yes, my child is very secure and happy. Do I think that’s simply down to him sleeping with me for a while?? Absolutely not. I did that because it worked and it was easier for everyone. I suspect he is the way he is in part because of his nature (which I cannot control)

Don’t let anyone make you feel bad about cry it out. We hired a sleep therapist who said that gentle methods would not work for our daughter… knowing her, we knew the therapist was right. Cry it out worked in 2 nights. We’d been trying the gentle methods for weeks and weeks. We’d got to a point where she’d only sleep with us on the floor of her room. She’s totally fine now, back to loving her cot (this was a blip at age 18/19 months), sits and sings to herself for 10 mins before bed and wakes up without crying (always shouting something like ‘mammy want water’)