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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to be absolutely livid with this palliative nurse?

183 replies

Smallwhitebutterfly · 07/10/2024 18:43

My dad had a massive stroke. We were in hospital for a few days before a palliative care nurse came to see us for the first time. I asked her to describe the signs when someone is dying - she said sometimes they frown if they're in pain and their breathing becomes erratic. Just as she was saying that my dad started to pause for a few seconds while breathing. We told her he had been breathing regularly before that. And she did say that was a sign he was deteriorating. Then he did this big grimace after being completely unresponsive and not moving his face at all for the past few days. We asked her about it and she said it looked like he needed to cough. But she didn't say this is it, it's happening, he's dying right now. She kept chatting to us about what the palliative care team did and gave us her contact details. Because she made it seem like this wasn't his final moments I popped out to the loo quickly. When I got back my dad had stopped breathing. Thinking I had missed his last breath I rushed to his side to tell him I loved him and he gave the tiniest gasp and didn't breathe again. AIBU to be angry that this woman experienced in death who didn't realise his final moments were happening and stole precious minutes we could have been speaking to him as a family? And also that it made me question whether I was actually there for the last breath? (I realise some of this anger may be misplaced grief...)

OP posts:
PTSDBarbiegirl · 07/10/2024 18:46

YABU, sorry for your loss. Nobody can predict the moment itself you were given the info you wanted and the nurse did her best. Death is shit but your Dad is out of pain. Nothing could have stopped that. Time to reflect on the good parts of life and plan the arrangements.

MissMoneyFairy · 07/10/2024 18:48

Sorry about your dad, no one can predict an exact time, he knew you were there with him.

Hiyawotcha · 07/10/2024 18:49

Agree with above - again so sorry for you. It’s a horrible stressful and upsetting time.
But I think it’s too much to expect even a trained nurse to be able to be spot on with whether death is imminent. I think things vary and some parts of dying can go fast and others slow, stalling and no change.

Yorkshiredolls · 07/10/2024 18:50

Im so sorry for your loss. Im not a palliative care nurse but I am an experienced nurse. Its really difficult to predict and call.sometimes people can be in this state for hours and sometimes days. Maybe it would have been better if she explained that to you. Perhaps palliative care nurses may be a little better predicting than me but sometimes the ones we anticipate to die very shortly can actually hang on for days and others where you think you have time go quickly. It happened with my family member. I thought we’d have several hours with him so I went home to get some clean clothes and while I was gone, within an hour, he died. Once again, so sorry for your loss.

Workingtosurvivenotthrive · 07/10/2024 18:50

I think, kindly, it's misplaced grief. I am so sorry for your loss. Death can looks lots of different ways and go on for quite some time or be quick as seems to have been the case with your dad. She probably wouldn't have known and with giving her details etc it seems perhaps it was expected it would be a while longer. Perhaps you could try to focus your memories of him in the time before he sadly had the stroke, might that help a little? I am so sorry, I hope you are as ok as you can be at this time.

rubyslippers · 07/10/2024 18:50

I’m so sorry for your terrible loss
end of life is not linear or predictable
you were with your dad at the end
take comfort in that
of course you’re angry - that’s part of grief
take time to process what’s happened
you were with him over the final days and moments
💐

HalfasleepChrisintheMorning · 07/10/2024 18:51

I’m so sorry about your Dad.
It isn’t an exact science, my Dad died in hospice in July and all the staff were lovely but didn’t seem to be able to predict exactly when he would go.
We were told it was imminent on Saturday morning and he didn’t go until Sunday afternoon. They also often hang on until you leave the room so he may have done that.
It sounds like it was peaceful and he would have known you were there close by.

Caffeineismydrug35 · 07/10/2024 18:51

I understand how you feel but I do think your anger is misplaced. When my precious dad was dying, one doctor said he has months, a palliative nurse said a few days and then another palliative nurse said a day or so. I went home to see my kids (I’d been at my parents for a week) thinking I’ll stay again the next day. He died within hours and I was utterly heartbroken. My mum said he gasped and then died so it does sound like you were there for his last breath. I don’t think they can know 100% no matter how many times they’ve seen it. I hope you have a supportive network. I’m sorry for your loss OP. Be kind to yourself.

Nottodaty · 07/10/2024 18:52

So sorry for your lost.

It very difficult to know the moment, my Nanna had many episodes similar to the above you described- they couldn’t tell us how much longer she carried on for 10 days - it was hard as we couldn’t all put our lives on hold but also didn’t want her to be alone or not close when the time comes. Sadly I missed it I was 2 hours away that isn’t the hospital fault it’s sadly when her body decided.

InformerYaNoSayDaddyMeSnowMeIGoBlameALickyBoom · 07/10/2024 18:52

Its easier to be upset with something tangible rather than the unfairness of your dad's death.

She didn't do anything wrong, but your feelings are totally 'normal' (for want of a better word).

I hope the coming days and weeks are as gentle on you as they can possibly be 💐

Babbadoobabbadock · 07/10/2024 18:53

She did nothing wrong

ahemfem · 07/10/2024 18:53

I'm sorry. It sounds like she was warning you it was going to happen soon but it is pretty much impossible to tell exactly when.

Katy123g · 07/10/2024 18:53

I'm sorry for your loss but yabu.
No matter how trained and experienced a nurse is, death is still unpredictable.

When my mum was dying we were told she had a few days left so I went home to see my children and planned to come back the next day. She died in the early hours.

I don't blame the staff for this but at the time I was really upset that I wasn't there so I completely understand your pain and anger.

Miley1967 · 07/10/2024 18:53

Sorry for your loss but as others have said no-one could know they were his last moments. Those grimaces that you describe literally could have been anything. I've been at hundreds of deaths and from those symptoms it would not have been possible to know that the end was near. Often people's breathing will become erratic then settle again.

AnnaMagnani · 07/10/2024 18:53

Unfortunately even the most experienced palliative care professional can't predict death to the minute.

I've been doing palliative care for over 20 years now and I still can't do it. Some people will do that pattern of breathing for days.

People almost appearing to wait until their loved ones are out of the room is also common, even when families have been living in a room for days the person dies at the minute they nipped out to get a sandwich. It happens a lot.

So sorry for your loss, stroke is so sudden.

Catandsquirrel · 07/10/2024 18:54

So sorry for your loss OP but you're spot on, it's misplaced grief. She was answering your questions as fully and honestly as she could by the sounds but no Dr or nurse, however experienced, can predict the very moment a patient will die. you were there for that last breath anyway and before, and all the years you spent with him 💐

Smartiepants79 · 07/10/2024 18:55

I am very sorry for your loss.
I also think this is your grief talking. Death looks do for everyone and can take various time scales and pathways. What if she’s told ‘he’s dying right now’ and then he’d hung on for several more hours.
I would gently suggest you try and let this go. It sounds like his final moments were peaceful and pain free. That’s really the best anyone of us can hope for.

EmmaEmEmz · 07/10/2024 18:55

I'm so sorry for your loss but gently, yabu.

No one can predict the moment someone's going to die. We were told my grandmother was in the last couple of hours of life and her breathing was erratic...it took another 5 days before she took her final one.

vipersnest1 · 07/10/2024 18:55

My DM's breathing changed well over 24 hours before she passed away.
The nurse had no way of knowing that your Dad's time was coming.
From what I've read, some people actually prefer to be alone when they finally pass away. This is what happened with my DDad - we literally entered the room as he took his last breath. I was very angry as we had been assured someone would be keeping an eye on him but this was impossible as his door (in a side room) was closed.
Your anger just now is a way that you are expressing your grief and completely normal,
@Smallwhitebutterfly, and please don't think I am minimising what you are going through. It's all so raw when you have lost someone you love.
Take care of yourself. Flowers

Alina3 · 07/10/2024 18:56

I'm so sorry for your loss OP.

You have insight into this being misplaced grief.

Even the most experienced, qualified end of life consultant cannot accurately predict when people are about to die. It's impossible. You can see signs, and the person continues on for hours or days longer. It's impossible to say 'this is it, now's the time' and if someone did and it wasn't, imagine the uproar and grief and trauma? Or if they were right, the person's last minutes might be wailing panicking family members desperately trying to cram last words in. The nurse has a responsibility to treat families compassionately, but her first primary duty is to her patient, your dad.

NewtonsCradle · 07/10/2024 18:56

He knew you were there and he knew you loved him. Everything else is just a distraction. Be kind to yourself.

Rachie1973 · 07/10/2024 18:56

I’m sorry about your Dad.

I think your anger is misplaced grief. No one, not even the most experienced of experts can predict the moment of passing.

The Cheynes-Stokes breathing is something I’ve witnessed many times through my job. I can see certain signs that warn death could be imminent but I can’t pinpoint it. I’ve seen people go for minutes, hours or days.

I hope you find peace xxx

florizel13 · 07/10/2024 18:56

In my experience as a former ward nurse, sometimes the patient appears to wait until the loved one pops out of the room to pass away. It happened with my own dad too. I'm so sorry for your loss Flowers

POTC · 07/10/2024 18:56

This is grief and guilt talking, yabu with your expectations of the nurse. You need to forgive yourself, you were with your dad when it mattered the most.
I worked as a carer and was there when one elderly resident passed. I was there when my granny died. I worked providing end of life care in people's homes and was there for the last moments of several clients. None of this helped when a good friend died, I wasn't able to tell she was about to go. Oh, and I don't recall any of them having erratic breathing or frowning in pain as new things immediately before.
Be kind to yourself

shellyleppard · 07/10/2024 18:56

Op I'm sorry for your loss. However no one can predict when it is the end. All I can say is he isn't suffering anymore. 🙏💐🫂