AIBU to be absolutely livid with this palliative nurse?

[Smallwhitebutterfly]

My dad had a massive stroke. We were in hospital for a few days before a palliative care nurse came to see us for the first time. I asked her to describe the signs when someone is dying - she said sometimes they frown if they're in pain and their breathing becomes erratic. Just as she was saying that my dad started to pause for a few seconds while breathing. We told her he had been breathing regularly before that. And she did say that was a sign he was deteriorating. Then he did this big grimace after being completely unresponsive and not moving his face at all for the past few days. We asked her about it and she said it looked like he needed to cough. But she didn't say this is it, it's happening, he's dying right now. She kept chatting to us about what the palliative care team did and gave us her contact details. Because she made it seem like this wasn't his final moments I popped out to the loo quickly. When I got back my dad had stopped breathing. Thinking I had missed his last breath I rushed to his side to tell him I loved him and he gave the tiniest gasp and didn't breathe again. AIBU to be angry that this woman experienced in death who didn't realise his final moments were happening and stole precious minutes we could have been speaking to him as a family? And also that it made me question whether I was actually there for the last breath? (I realise some of this anger may be misplaced grief...)

YABU, even though it’s understandable. No one knows when it will happen.

My daughter died in her sleep so quietly I did not hear her die. The sound of the oxygen machine obscured her last breath, I imagine. I did feel guilty for a while, but she was peacefully asleep, which was the best possible way for her to go.

Hi, I don’t know if this helps at all but my Dad had Alzheimer’s. He was in a care home and the care staff rang us to go in after noticing Cheyne Stoke breathing. A few hours later his breathing evened out a bit but we were advised that his body was starting to shut down.
He became less alert, didn’t eat and by day 5 he was asleep. A week later we noticed the erratic breathing again, he started to become cold and eventually passed away peacefully.
The point I’m trying to make is that the nurses genuinely believed that it was imminent on that first day. I guess it’s about reading the signs but no one can be exactly sure.
Also, my Mum invited her vicar along to pray with Dad before he died. He told me, in his experience, that some people choose to die when their loved ones nip home or leave the room. He worded it as a ‘private moment between them and God’ and they try to spare their loved ones of the experience. I’m not overly religious and I’m certainly not pushing this on you but it might be comforting to know. I don’t know.
I am so very sorry to learn of your loss and I know only too well the huge gaping hole it leaves in your heart.
It is completely natural to feel angry when you lose someone and I understand why you might feel that way. As you say, the nurse was experienced which might indicate that it really is a grey area and each patient is different.
I wonder if it might help to speak to her in time. To maybe get some of your questions off your chest so that you can settle your mind and give yourself some closure over something that might continue to upset you.
Take each day at a time. Your emotions are going to be wild for a while so be as kind as you can to yourself xxx

This. My Grandma was hospitalised with pneumonia. My mum is one of six sisters who had been sat by her bedside in a shift type pattern. My Mum is the eldest and as it was getting late and she had a long drive him, my Grandma insisted she went home to get some sleep.
Minutes after she left, my Mums other sister received a call to explain my Grandma had passed away peacefully in her sleep.
We all truly believe it’s the way she wanted it ❤️

A nurse who cannot handle a bereaved person's behaviour should indeed consider a different career.
OP was not angry towards the nurse; in her OP she said her feelings might be due to her bereavement.

Sorry for your loss. I have friends in this type of nursing and from what they say “final moments” can be up to several days. It’s very hard to predict and some people can “go on” for several days more than expected. I don’t think the nurse was out of line, your father could have lived a few more days under palliative care so she needed to give you the information.

Is it? I don’t think so.

Sorry for your loss. Yes it's misplaced grief.

I used to work in a hospice, many years ago. As many pps have said, it can be extremely difficult to predict when exactly someone might go.

My father, when he was dying, was unconscious with ragged breathing for days. (I think it was more distressing for my mother than if he had just slipped away quickly.) Some people actually seem to try to avoid dying when their family are there.

He will have known you were there and that he was surrounded by love. I'm so sorry you've lost your father: it will take a while to process. Please be kind to yourself.

Absolutely livid? Your anger is very unfair and misplaced.

You cannot predict the end, OP. My Mum had no erratic breathing, no death rattle, no sign of pain. I went home from the hospital the day she died because it seemed like any other day and she died with no warning at all.

It's not the nurse's fault.

100% he would have still been aware at the time you came back and known you were there. Hearing is the last thing to go. You didn't miss it, he knew you were there with him. Sorry for your loss op

My dad was at the threshold of death like thus for weeks before passingmYABVU

I am very sorry for everyone who lost someone on this thread. The posts about losing your children are tugging at my heart. Sorry I can't reply to you all individually.

Just an update my Dad has just died in the hospice it was very quick & he was pain free. I told mom to tell him to go, she did he just stopped fighting. For him it was a good death my mom was saying we have been around death most of our lives we lived in an old peoples home. He was a good dad & husband he will be very missed. After he died my dog wanted to get up on the bed to be with him, she was very good.

Having been a frontline worker I can promise you public abuse/ blame played a part in me retiring early. It made me ill.

If it's any comfort to you, I've heard and read so often of dying people waiting until relatives left the room to actually die.

My DF did, we had been there hours and he waited for us to go home.

It sounds to all intents and purposes "a good death", peaceful, painless and with someone there caring for him, so I would advise focusing on that, and I'm so sorry for your loss.

But the OP didn't do anything of the sort.
She expressed her feelings here, not at the nurse.
It is widely known that (sadly) frontline workers are increasingly subjected to horrible abuse, but that isn't the situation here.

I was replying to someone who was saying people are leaving the nhs due to blame by the public. Another person disagreed & said ‘1 don’t think so’ I was replying to this comment. If I got the wrong end of the stick my bad,
she may not have blamed the nurse to her face but she posted her blame on a public forum, you think nurses don’t read these comments & that it doesn’t effect how it makes them feel.

@Smallwhitebutterfly when my grandma died, my mum had sat with her for two days waiting for the moment. She was persuaded to go home for a rest and a shower. As she opened the door the phone was ringing because grandma had died. The nurse gently explained that sometimes, by leaving, a lived one gives the dying the freedom to pass rather than hang on for them.

I've read it since and it is evidently a thing.

My condolences.

You were replying to me, no o don’t think that a nurse would take the OPs comments to heart. As almost everyone has said, it’s not the nurses fault.

so I would’ve thought that any nurse reading this would be pleased with the support they got on here.

Nurses are carers we take comments to heart, all the postive comments in the world doesn’t cancel out the one negative comment. I think women do that anyway but nurses/midwives are even more sensitive to the fact they may have hurt someone’s feelings.

I would like to think that any nurse reading this thread would read the whole thing and see how much compassion the OP was shown by posters, which gave her a better understanding. Her very first post says "(I realise some of this anger may be misplaced grief...)" so even in the midst of her immediate grief and feelings of anger she was able to recognise that.

So, one negative comment made by someone who is utterly distraught at their dead father's bedside would be enough to make a nurse leave their role? I stand by the comment I made way back - I don't think that nurse is cut out for that position.

but nurses/midwives are even more sensitive to the fact they may have hurt someone’s feelings. are they? I would have thought many develop quite a hard skin and recognise that the words coming out of someone's mouth might be from fear, confusion, anger, mental illness. I am not minimising the obvious outright rudeness and abuse staff receive, but OP was not doing that.

They can't predict it. My dad was 'holding on' for a lot longer than the palliative team thought. Each day they told us they thought this was the day. It was tough, as we just wanted it to end, for his sake.

I'm sorry for your loss, OP.

I'm so sorry for the loss of your dear dad. Unfortunately the nurse wouldn't necessarily be able to predict the exact moment of death. Nobody can do that, no matter how experienced.
It's just in unfortunate coincidence you went to the bathroom briefly at that moment.
It's terrible to feel you lost a precious moment with him but blaming the nurse is somewhat unfair.
I hope you can seek bereavement counselling, and have plenty of support at this difficult time. X