Kids not wanting to attend SILs wedding after argument

[comfortablynumber]

My sister in law is getting married in 3 weeks. My daughter is a bridesmaid and my son is an usher. However we’ve all just had a huge row and now my children don’t particularly want to go either. Looking for advice.

Both my kids are in private school. Daughter year 10, son year 11. SIL very much disapproves of our choice. She also has a child in year 11. Over a family Sunday lunch we were discussing plans for post GCSE education. We’re not pulling the kids out of school during GCSEs but the fee increase is too much long term. The plan therefore is for them to complete their GCSEs in their current school and hopefully then get a place at the excellent local state school for 6th form. The local school is C of E which is why we couldn’t get in for senior school (I have some thoughts about that, but that’s another thread!) However for 6th form current pupils just have to achieve high GCSEs and new pupils very high GCSEs. They make offers to new pupils based on school predicted grades and the number of applicants etc. Last year for example to get in for A level maths you needed to be predicted a min 7 as well as scoring highly in an exam the school set.

I thought SIL would be happy, but she lost her mind. It was triggered by a comment my son made- he said he was looking forward to going because it would be nice to go somewhere bigger, meet new people and because most of his friends from his current school were also applying. His current school is selective and high achieving. Son is predicted 7-9 in almost everything and most of his friends are the same. We’re talking a year group of 150 kids with at least 50+% now applying to the local school (previously I’d say 10-20% went after GCSEs). This will obviously massively increase the competition for the places they can offer to people who aren’t already pupils.

SIL went off. It’s not fair apparently that her son and his friends may not be offered a place because of competition from kids who had the benefit of private education. She genuinely said that there should be a sort of tier system - like university contextual offers. The thing is, that other than the great C of E school the other school options aren’t good at all (hence us going private.) Son asked SIL if she was saying that because he’d been privately educated she thought he should go somewhere not great for A levels, and she said yes! Apparently he’ll do fine anywhere. Son said he didn’t want to do “fine”- he was aiming for better, and some of the other local schools don’t even offer things like further maths or A levels other than the basics.

DH (her brother) pointed out that the levelling up of state schools she thinks will happen when private schools lose pupils would take some time and there were bound to be issues initially, especially when lots more kids look to go to state schools for A levels in a few years. He’s been pissed off with her for years and pointed out that this is what she wanted. My son and daughter are very upset that their aunt seemingly doesn’t care that much about them.

I’m more sympathetic. Nephew has struggled in the school he’s currently in (also not able to get into C of E school) with low level bullying. He’s had 3 maths teachers in 18 months and his science teachers have been dreadful. The drama teacher is currently filling in in GCSE English lit for unknown reasons and it’s not going well. It’s all been a bit shit and I know they are hugely keen for him to go somewhere different for A level. However his predicted grades aren’t brilliant and he was always borderline as to whether he’d get in based on last years offers- the additional competition may well mess things up for him. SIL has been really upset about his school for a long time which is one of the reasons she’s been so cross about us going private. Apparently the local schools would have been better if the private school and the Cof E didn’t cream off the better pupils. She’s not wrong (don’t want this to be a thread about educational policy though) However my son and daughter are I think rightfully annoyed that she’d be happy to send them there!

It all got very fraught until my MIL nearly burst into tears and people calmed down. However the children are now saying they don’t want to be in her wedding. This is my problem- do I tell them to suck it up (outfits bought, far to late in the day to drop out, not doing it would cause possibly unrecoverable family strife, they love their cousin and my SIL when she’s not upset and speaking without thinking) or do I let them chose not to? They’re young and cross and I’m know they haven’t thought through the long term ramifications.

DH says we should leave them tonight but he’s not exactly impartial. I actually like SIL (despite being often and vocally judged) and think that everyone will end up regretting not going. I also think she’s a worried mother who is seeing the possibility of her child not getting a place somewhere he really wants to go. I’d be upset -and I am upset for nephew.
What do I do?

Once your kids have calmed down a little, try talking to them rationally. There are two ways to look at this issue: in the abstract, or personally.

On a personal level, SIL has said that your DC should go to the less-good school to give your nephew a better chance. Okay, your DC don’t like that - fair. But if they’re interpreting this on a personal level, they must accept that they are telling SIL that they’re happy for your nephew to stay in the less-good school in order that they can continue to have a better education. The personal argument is emotional, and bound to cause bad feeling - but you can’t feel hurt that you’re being told to suck up an inferior education, without accepting that that’s exactly what you’re saying your cousin should do. Your DC are showing no empathy, and receiving none in return. (Your SIL should, however, be asked to tone down the commentary in front of the kids - private school was your decision, not theirs, and it isn’t fair that they should be harangued about it.)

The private school kids have had massive educational advantages, and the school’s results reflect that. Sure, there are bright kids there, but the atmosphere, facilities, and standard of teaching, as well as the “creaming off”, play a part in pushing up the results of kids who would probably not do as well in the not-good local state school.

Worse, the only good local state excludes kids based on religion. So if your parents aren’t well off and aren’t Christian, you get a worse education.

The only opportunity the not-rich not-Christian kids have to improve their university chances is to move to the CofE school for sixth form. The influx of former private-school kids means that they’re now even less likely to be able to make that move.

On an abstract level, ask your DC whether they can understand how unfair this is, and why it makes their aunt angry. Point out that, although she said some nasty things, there’s no way to talk about this on a personal level without it boiling down to both sides saying “your education should suffer so that mine improves”. Ask them how they feel about the exclusion of less-well-off, non-Christian children from the only good schools in the area. Do they feel that this is fair? Do they understand that they are privileged to have had private education?

It’s not about them feeling bad about their own advantages - that was your decision, and you made it with your DC’s best interests at heart. But be honest with them about what you’ve said here - the situation is horribly unfair, and they are lucky that you’re able to pay for them to have an advantage.

And be clear with them that dropping out of the wedding now would be bad manners, would make their aunt, uncle, and cousin very unhappy, and would potentially be an end to the close relationship they currently have. Disagreeing on this issue, however emotive it is, is not a sufficient reason to make this big gesture, which essentially says “We are no longer willing to behave like family to you”.

He could have phrased it better. He's 15 though. He was just chatting about his plans- a conversation over lunch. Then his aunt who he loves started telling him he shouldn't go to the school he wants and should go elsewhere. Thing is- we know her opinion on "elsewhere". She's been very vocal that whilst nephews school isn't good it's the best of a bad lot. It was pretty clear what she was saying and he responded emotionally and tactlessly.

I do think I need to talk to them about privilege and how fortunate they have been and the impact this will have on other less fortunate children. It's not fair. I get it. I'm really frustrated I send mine to private school but frankly I wasn't prepared to play politics with my kids when I could afford not to. I'm part of the problem and I've always sympathised with SIL and her annoyance with us.

Is that legal?

I'm asking out of interest. No chance our C of E would do it.....

Pulling out of the wedding is the nuclear option. Don’t do that. It’ll be more stress for everyone for longer and probably be unrecoverable for family dynamics. Conflict is a natural part of life and this is a good opportunity to teach your kids how to navigate it in a mature way.

Surely that sort of a conversation is not for teens to be involved in! Your kids shouldn’t hear an adult giving out about their schooling plans and definitely shouldn’t be arguing with them! As for them thinking their aunt doesn’t care just because she disagrees-also ridiculous! Saying that of course she has a point and probably panicked heating the starkness of that- why should children be disadvantaged in that way?!

what the ever loving fuck?

I say this as a rather expensively privately educated person: this scenario is hugely unfair to the state school kids who now have to fight for places at a school they'd normally get in, against a cohort who have had every opportunity to shine due to their parents' income. Sure the privately schooled kids didn't choose their school, neither did the state school kids.

And the truth is, given they have already got a good head start on knowing how to learn, the privately educated lot probably would do better at a slightly less good school.

Well, Labour's actions have consequences and here are some. There will be many more to come. They can't just think they'll take money off whoever they want and not expect people to change their behaviour.

Anyway, seems like the school does apply contextual stuff anyway if the external kids need higher grades that the internal ones to get in.

SIL can be angry with the government if she wants. But being angry with you/your DC for choosing the best option you can is utterly ridiculous.

For clever, emotionally robust kids it's wonderful. It's pretty dreadful in terms if ethos though.

A bright 15/16 year old (how OP describes him) is able to understand the contextualised arguments SIL was making. And he did make is personal and mocking, and in front of her own child, his cousin. His Aunt said he didn't need a good sixth form - in answer to his very specific question - a) because it's true, for reasons she explained, but more importantly b) because when you ask someone an offensive question, and mock their values within that, you can expect a certain response. A bright 15/16 year old knows all this. Yes, he's a child, but so his SILs DS and he has to listen to this too.

Definitely go to the wedding. It will make things far worse if you don't. Your kids need to understand that families often row and some things can be said in the heat of the moment but that shouldn't mean that it has to escalate. She handled it badly but shouldn't necessarily be punished for that if she's usually nice and you all love her.

I hope your son learns to check his privilege before he starts university. He might find his peers outside his bubble are a lot less polite than his auntie when he poses questions like that....

PPs seem to be suggesting simultaneously that:

• The local schools can't do as well because all the "best" students are creamed off by the private school
• The private school students should not get into the good 6th form school because despite getting good grades they are actually not as intelligent and lazier than their state school counterparts and only got good grades because of the school.

Which is it? It can't be both.

In the same way, you can't suddenly add VAT to private school fees and expect all private school parents to just suck it up and magic up an extra 20%. There has been enough people warning that if VAT is added to fees, lots of children will leave private, meaning more competition at good state schools. The response has been that the VAT on the remaining students will more than make up for this and the state schools will all improve.

So what is SIL's problem?

This wasn't an argument about politics, this was a direct attack on children who she feels are doing better than her own. I wouldn't want to go to her wedding.

And if I was DS and you told me she was right and I hadn't earned the grades I've worked hard for, I wouldn't have much time for you either.

@MrsSunshine2b no she’s not saying he doesn’t deserve his grades - she’s saying he’s extremely privileged. Your thinking is extremely 2 dimensional.

This is good. Thank you.

Let things calm down OP before making that call not to attend.
Your SIL isn't wrong in her opinion and has very valid points- but your kids are young and juet see her personally attacking them and want her to be 100% behind them but it's obviously something she feels very strongly on. Your kids aren't wrong either re their choices. Ut just sucks for those kids who get the raw end of the deal.

So...let it all blow over for a few days then sit them down and calmly explain they have to go , because not going to a wedding will be something that this relationship doesn't come back from between the 2 families and its not worth severing ties over this. You and dh need to set the example of being mad and allowing their opinion to be valid but in this example showing them how family ties are kept not severed at every small turn in life. It's hard but doable.

• The local schools can't do as well because all the "best" students are creamed off by the private school
• The private school students should not get into the good 6th form school because despite getting good grades they are actually not as intelligent and lazier than their state school counterparts and only got good grades because of the school.

They can both be true quite easily for a number of reasons.

It is unfair to the state kids. But it's what people voted for. It was never ever going to be as simple as a "cash grab from rich people" which is the complete and utter bullshit that Labour sold people.

I've seen in the news that they are rethinking the non dom cash grab because the non doms will just bugger off. This really is a case of no shit sherlock!

He didn't realise. Hes 15. The idea of finite places to be allocated didn't occur to him.

I actually think this would make the situation worse and shows that even though you’re pretending to, you don’t understand your SIL’s point or your kids arrogance and privilege

You really do sound lovely & very self-aware - please make sure you're passing that on to your kids. Imo that mentality is far more important for a healthy & happy life than top grades 🙏. I do wonder if your own guilt has stopped you making them fully acknowledge the situation. Did both you & DH do private school yourselves?

"Son asked SIL if she was saying that because he’d been privately educated she thought he should go somewhere not great for A levels, and she said yes! Apparently he’ll do fine anywhere. Son said he didn’t want to do “fine”- he was aiming for better..."
SIL is worried her son won't even be able to do fine. She's seeing his future in fear and that fear is talking. She's seeing what he's been through with bullying and that is talking. She's saying they dont NEED the great school as much as some other kids do. She's saying its unfair that income can dictate educational outcomes. She's not saying its unfair they didn't struggle she's sayings it's unfair her son has. It's not really about them, its about her fear and her experiences, what she's seen her son go through. I hope they can understand that. I'd be giving things a little time to calm down then explaining the context behind what happened and eventually yes when it got closer to the wedding that they need to go, because it may be impossible to come back from them dropping out of the wedding so close and even if they dont care about seeing their aunt right now this could ruin the relationship with their cousin. Them not going will hurt him too. I know it might be a lot at those ages to ask them to understand where she's coming from but I would be trying to help them understand that she was saying what she did because she's really worried for her son.

Thing is there is no guarantee that the SiL's son wouldn't have been bullied in a different school (state or private). All of the 6th form options are at risk of having bullying - how good the school is at tackling it matters, but they can't stop it 100%. Blaming her nephew for her son's problems & the obvious impact of VAT on school fees is really rude and as a fifteen year old I absolutely would be very angry. It's on her for being tactless to a child.
I do think they should go to the wedding but as a petty fifteen year I absolutely would have scowled in the photos!

Oh stop 😂 I knew at that age there’s only a certain number of places. If he really is so smart, maybe work on his common sense too 🙄

It seems neither you, as parents, nor the school, have taught your children to respect other people's views, without agreeing with that view. Neither have your children been taught that to sulk and walk away when a difference of views occurs is not the way to resolve an argument.

So what? People are very quick to say they don't care if children are priced out of private education, fair enough. The result is that those children will move to other schools, which could increase competition on your own children. You cannot say that the children that have been priced out must now be sent to the worst schools to atone for their privilege.