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Survey at work using the term cis woman

1000 replies

SuzanneRogers · 06/10/2024 13:16

So I filled all the survey, very happy at work, public secror.
Note that this survey is outsourced by another survey organisation.

Then I come to the last bit please describe your role in the organisation, did that, and then how would you describe your sex or gender?

( Can’t remember exactly how the question was phrased )but the only option for women was “cis woman.”

Quite cross about this and I’m not sure how to best articulate this to my managers who, to be fair never use this term and will not have had any input to designing the survey. Any input welcome.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/10/2024 22:02

From YouGov

When it comes to access to gender-specific facilities, attitudes are consistently more permissive towards granting access to transgender men than transgender women. Willingness also depends on the facility in question, with people more concerned about allowing access to changing rooms than toilets.

While Britons are split on whether trans women should be allowed to use women’s toilets (38% say they should, 41% say they should not), they tend to be opposed to allowing trans women to use women’s changing rooms, by 43% to 34%.

...

Subsequently asking the same questions about toilets and changing rooms – but this time specifying trans people who had not undergone gender reassignment surgery – sees permissiveness decline. In the case of allowing such trans women to use women’s toilets, willingness falls from 38% in the generic question to 29%, and in the case of changing rooms, from 34% to 25%.

yougov.co.uk/society/articles/43194-where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights-1

TofuTart · 06/10/2024 22:03

No one is "conflating women with gender critical people". All feminist women are critical of gender to some extent and most genderists make some exceptions to their insistence that some males should be treated as women at all times, even you

I think the poster meant people are conflating "gender critical" with women as in assuming anyone "GC" is a woman posting and so using the words interchangeably.
When several people post on MN "gender critically" and happily say they're men.
It doesn't necessarily mean they're women.
(Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong though)

TheHereticalOne · 06/10/2024 22:05

Catiette · 06/10/2024 21:55

Fundamentally, we're not posting as an intellectual exercise, or to be provocative, or as distraction. The vast majority of us certainly aren’t posting because we're in some way "transphobic" or motivated by “removing” another group’s rights. In fact, it can be distressing to see our concerns misrepresented in this way, because it indicates, perhaps more than anything else, the extent of the misunderstanding we need to overcome (or, more cynically, the ruthlessness of our opponents). The truth is, quite simply, that this is about us. This movement is hurting us – really hurting us. I'd say it's changed my life and I don't think that would be an exaggeration. (I know my life could be changed in an infinity of worse ways than this, but...)

To see such wholesale dismissal of who and what I am, and of my needs – and to live through the organised destruction of the language I need to be able to express this – has been frankly, fucking terrifying. I nearly put “women” instead of “my” there, as I wanted to refer to adult human females as a collective, whatever their political views – but I’ve been told that would be morally wrong. In fact, many people see the three words I just used instead of it as evidence of bigotry. Do you see how that perspective could be frightening to me?

51% of human beings are are uniquely vulnerable because of their physical bodies. These vulnerabilities alone mean that every minute, every hour, every day, innumerable members of this demographic die, or fall ill, or are injured, or abused. Millions are enslaved, because of their bodies. Hundreds of millions are living in fear, because of their relative physical weakness. Millions upon millions will suffer in ways the other half of the population will never have to contemplate, due to their capacity for childbirth, or the presumption of this. This 51% of humanity used to have a name of its own – but this word has now been repurposed. Individuals who attempt to name this demographic, in this or other ways – to advocate for its unique needs – are increasingly condemned as unspeakably vile.

Scroll through these threads to see the litany of harms that this removal of our language is causing, facilitating or compounding. Rape. Abuse. Trauma. Compromised health. Ruined careers. Anxiety, in spaces where we didn’t used to feel anxious. Fear, of voicing what we think and believe, or even who we believe we are. And undocumented self-exclusion, from everything from rape support to swimming pools. Decade-old measures to protect us from male violence – infinitely precious social contracts, statistically proven to work – are being deliberately dismantled, without the knowledge of many. We are being put at increased physical risk.

Yet despite that, women’s concerns about our language are dismissed as invalid, hysterical or bigotted – unworthy of respect or meaningful engagement. TERFs. Dinosaurs. Cunts (do you see the irony?!) Even as the "opposing sides'" parallel expressions of fear and distress about language are recognised (even, in fact, as women listen and reflect on these, and seek a middle ground), women’s own entirely equivalent feelings are met with abuse and threats. Can you see the inconsistency, the double standards, the hypocrisy? There’s nothing that can rationalise or justify the sheer extent of it. The only way to understand it is to realise how little this 51%, the group previously permitted the word “women”, is actually valued and heard and respected.

After all those years of thinking I was seen as equal in most ways, to realise this has been utterly shattering.Before this movement, I thought we were getting there. I found it genuinely uplifting to see how much progress had been made in such a short time. Now, I think I had it the wrong way round, and the recentness of our hard-won rights, instead, makes me feel vulnerable. Think about it. About 100 years ago, women had no vote. That’s within almost-living memory. About 30 years ago, women were legally subjected to marital rape. That's me-as-property, within our lifetime.

Right now, women in Afghanistan are effectively imprisoned in their own homes because of their sex. (To suggest that this is due to their gender identity would be to deny the source of their oppression; it would be to imply that some women are exempt from it, and that others are “identifying” into it. It would be an appalling imposition of western language and values on people who may not even have heard of these concepts. It would be, in short, exactly what Amnesty International did in a recent publication. Because they no longer had the language necessary to state the truth).

Do you really think, given all this, that we can afford to lose the word “women”? That we should be pressured (not asked) to give it up?

“But not all women agree with you,” you say (or would, if you had the words). Well, of course not – when in the history of humanity has everyone agreed on anything?! If you think about it, back when the suffragettes were fighting for the vote, many women favoured the status quo and many weren’t bothered either way. It “didn’t impact us” directly, after all – not in a measurable, individualised, daily way. But there was a distressing bigger picture, wasn’t there? Whenever I hear the question often levelled at GC feminists – “But how does it affect you?” – it reminds me of that. Once again, 100 years since our enfranchisement, we’re back to, “You don’t need a distinct political voice of your own as women. Your identity is to be subsumed into men’s – men will determine who you are and what you need. Be quiet, don’t argue.”

Those of us who see it are appalled. Those of us who don’t are entitled to their views, too, but I truly believe that some of those (not all – and who am I to say how many, or who?) just can’t bear to see it. I know from my own experience that the realisation is intensely distressing to live with, and it’s far easier to live in ignorance of it.

I do now believe that sexism is the most insidious, inescapable prejudice of all. I know that’s problematic to say in many ways – in fact, I think that the injunction against saying so only goes to prove it: feminism isn’t fashionable for a reason. Still, while I apologise for any offence caused, I invite you to consider the following…

The N word on white lips is unthinkable – thank God. Spastic? So few people would say it now, and rightly. Wrong pronouns? The common consensus is that it's about basic respect and actively prevents harm...

Now compare all that to porn.

The physical degradation of women, for men’s viewing pleasure, in a flourishing industry exploiting hundreds of thousands. Where’s the parallel social consensus there? Well, there is some: it’s fine (or, perhaps, problematic, but fundamentally unavoidable); sex work is work, after all (and it’s not just about women, you bigot). Rape Reddits? Unpleasant, but what some lads want (and no one’s actually being hurt in chats). And we can’t police the internet or restrict freedom of speech and association, can we?

Just take a moment to think about the sheer irony of these defences in the light of the current attacks on women’s words and spaces. Just think about the chasm between society’s attitudes to porn – actual, physical abuse in an industry of suffering thousands – and its attitude to the N-word.

Even then you may find yourself twisting and resisting and excusing and rationalising, because patriarchal values are the air we breathe. What courage it takes to accept that our air is poisonous – to live with that knowledge and to try to spread the unwanted warning. Kill the messenger, right?

So thanks, in a sense, to this ideology and its embrace across the West. It’s helped me to wake up when nothing else did. It’s changed how I see this world, and how I experience it.

And if your instinct is still to dismiss my thoughts as extreme, please try – honestly, just try – to compare that instinct to your empathy for similar claims to distress made by TRAs, and ask yourself: what's the difference?

And is that difference objectively enough to be so very certain that I’m right?

Edited

Thank you. If any cold comfort, I recognise every word of this as though it could have been my own.

Helleofabore · 06/10/2024 22:06

Just a reminder of why the word 'cis' is meaningless and always was.

Based on posts from another thread where a poster assured us that cis women are what we should be talking about when referring to two male boxers who competed in the female category of boxing in the Paris Olympics, I decided that we need as many women who read these threads to understand just what that term means.

The term 'cis' is now meaningless because it also now includes any male person who has a DSD yet has a body that is **formed around the production of small gametes, ie. a male person with a difference of sex development that have testes or testes tissue. Such as Caster Semenya.

Therefore, female people have no unique words that describe just those female people who have a body ^^formed around the production of large gametes.

None.

There is no word left for female people. Because even male people are now saying they are also ‘female’.

Because 'girl' and 'woman' both now include:

1 Male person who has been incorrectly registered as a female at birth, but has a male body **.

2 Any male person has now claimed a transgender identity using those labels.

3 And any person who has a female body ^^.

Under the label of 'girl' and 'woman', extreme transgender activists have been telling us for years that those labels break down into two types of girls or women:

Cis and Transwomen/transgirls.

These terms mean:

Cis = (1) Male person who has been incorrectly registered as a female at birth, but has a male body **

and

= (3) Any person who has a female body^^

Trans = (2) Any male person has now claimed a transgender identity using those labels.

There is no unique word to mean female people who have a body ^^ formed around the production of large gametes.

Cis is now shown to be meaningless and it always was. It is also misogynistic because it leaves female people with no unique word for their needs.

(sorry, the formatting on this post is probably higgly piggly, hopefully the pic helps)

Survey at work using the term cis woman
Manxexile · 06/10/2024 22:08

TofuTart · 06/10/2024 17:08

When was the last time you or anyone else referred to themselves as a cis woman in RL?!
I know I don't, I just refer to myself as.a woman.
I've never called myself a cis woman as like others say, I'm just a woman
Woman will do, and does quite nicely in everyday life away from the internet.
If you're talking about being trans like in online "discussions" like this one though or a medical setting, it makes sense to differentiate.
Hence the word cis.

I would never refer to myself as any sort of woman in real life.

I'd probably just say I was a man both IRL and on a forum like this.

I don't have a "gender identity". I'm just me.

If anybody asked me what it was like to be a man I'd probably say "I don't know. This is all I know. I presume that this is 'feeling like a man' but I've never known anything different so how would I know?"

AgileGreenSeal · 06/10/2024 22:08

lifeturnsonadime · 06/10/2024 21:55

I mean this is basic.

'identifying as' is a luxury belief.

These girls had no choice.

It's sickening that this had to be pointed out to Amnesty International.

Amnasty is sickening.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/10/2024 22:08

(Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong though)

That's not what he meant. Consider that me correcting.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/10/2024 22:09

Based on posts from another thread where a poster assured us that cis women are what we should be talking about when referring to two male boxers who competed in the female category of boxing in the Paris Olympics, I decided that we need as many women who read these threads to understand just what that term means.

The term 'cis' is now meaningless because it also now includes any male person who has a DSD yet has a body that is **formed around the production of small gametes, ie. a male person with a difference of sex development that have testes or testes tissue. Such as Caster Semenya.

Therefore, female people have no unique words that describe just those female people who have a body formed around the production of large gametes.

Yes, exactly.

TofuTart · 06/10/2024 22:09

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/10/2024 22:08

(Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong though)

That's not what he meant. Consider that me correcting.

Speaking for someone else? There's a surprise.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/10/2024 22:13

Fundamentally, we're not posting as an intellectual exercise, or to be provocative, or as distraction. The vast majority of us certainly aren’t posting because we're in some way "transphobic" or motivated by “removing” another group’s rights. In fact, it can be distressing to see our concerns misrepresented in this way, because it indicates, perhaps more than anything else, the extent of the misunderstanding we need to overcome (or, more cynically, the ruthlessness of our opponents).

I consider the accusation that we're only posting about it because we "hate" DARVO gaslighting. Women have rights, and we are allowed to express them. "Not all women agree with you" isn't actually an argument. The Anti Suffrage League was a thing, and most women agree with me on the basic fact that people who identify as "trans women" are male.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/10/2024 22:13

Speaking for someone else? There's a surprise.

Didn't you just presume to do that?

Catiette · 06/10/2024 22:14

@Ereshkigalangcleg And explicitly invited you to do so!

Inconsistencies abound...

lifeturnsonadime · 06/10/2024 22:15

and most women agree with me on the basic fact that people who identify as "trans women" are male

EVERYONE knows trans women are men. Even the most ardent genderists.

If trans women were women no one would be fighting for them.

Where is all the support for the Afghan girls and women who have no rights?

Trans women matter because they are MEN.

Namechangeforadhd · 06/10/2024 22:18

OchonAgusOchonOh · 06/10/2024 21:01

I have repeatedly given examples up thread of how that information can be gathered:

What was your sex at birth? M/F

Do you have a gender identity? Y/N
If yes, what is it?

Or Do you have a gender identity that differs from your sex at birth? Y/N
If yes, what is it?

This works. Covers all bases

Waitwhat23 · 06/10/2024 22:19

Doesnae look like we're getting any answers on this thread. Packing up my camping stool and away back round to the sweetie shop for a quarter of pineapple cubes.

Helleofabore · 06/10/2024 22:20

No male person can ever say what it feels like to be a 'woman'. None.

Any woman who 'feels like a woman' is basing that feeling on dealing with your body and how you navigate life with it, including how society reacts to your body and how you deal with it.

That is the only commonality that female people have. Even the lack of ovulation as a female human post puberty means that you, general you, are having an exclusive 'female' experience.

No male can have this ‘feeling’ because their life is only based on their male body. The two are not based on a commonality. How can it? Even from birth, male people are treated differently. So those male people claiming to ‘feel like a woman’ have no fucking idea what it means to be a girl or a woman.

You might ‘feel’ like a woman, because you have a female body and are past puberty. You have seen how society treats all women and girls and you have knowledge of your self and how society has treated you since birth, even since conception.

No male shares this experience at all. They cannot 'feel like a woman'.

They can only ever feel as they believe a woman will feel, based on sexist stereotypes held by that male person.

This 'feeling like they are in the wrong body' is also philosophical belief. Because it is based on the feeling that they are not the sex they have been born. So, the only other option is that they must be the 'other sex' because that is all there is. Two sexes. If a person disassociates from being one sex, then the default is that they 'must be the other sex'.

Again, it lacks logic and is not based on any material reality at all. Just belief.

TofuTart · 06/10/2024 22:21

Where is all the support for the Afghan girls and women who have no rights

I support them too

ChishiyaBat · 06/10/2024 22:21

Waitwhat23 · 06/10/2024 22:19

Doesnae look like we're getting any answers on this thread. Packing up my camping stool and away back round to the sweetie shop for a quarter of pineapple cubes.

Could you grab me a quarter of cherry lips while you're there pretty please😁

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/10/2024 22:22

The idea that a lot of women saying they don't want to be referred to by a term they consider disrespectful and sexist seems to be a great opportunity for self important men like Dadjoke to put us in our place. And that tells you everything.

A few women disagreeing with me that men are women does not mean I can't speak up for the billions of women and girls who know perfectly well what a woman is, like even the #bekind ones do.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/10/2024 22:24

Doesnae look like we're getting any answers on this thread.

Behold my shocked face. "You are this meaningless label because I say you are, even though it refers to an odd quasi religious position you wholeheartedly reject". "Why?" "Because you are, that's the rules".

Catiette · 06/10/2024 22:25

Something else I actually find really distressing about this movement is that attention has been dragged away from the minority who suffer deep-seated dysphoria and deserve careful consideration of how to accommodate their needs. I do believe these people exist - I know medics who have treated them. But there are so, so very few of them, and they and their genuine challenges have been subsumed into a whole, indifferent ideology of privilege. I don't believe that many of the most vocal proponents of that ideology care about them - not really. (Truscum, right? Appalling). And, meanwhile, I do want to show care for them, perhaps even consider making some cautious concessions to them myself. But as long as doing so risks the degradation or total loss of women's rights, protections, spaces, sports, political voice, language itself - how can I afford to? How can I?!

Hm. Think I'll join you in the sweet shop for comfort food.

Sherbet lemons for me.

lifeturnsonadime · 06/10/2024 22:27

TofuTart · 06/10/2024 22:21

Where is all the support for the Afghan girls and women who have no rights

I support them too

How? If you think sex is irrelevant and gender is what oppresses women I would love to know, in very specific and practical ways, how you are supporting those women and girls?

Catiette · 06/10/2024 22:29

Give them their words back.

Give us our words back.

So little to ask.

(So very, very much to ask...)

lifeturnsonadime · 06/10/2024 22:30

Woman = adult human female.

Men are not women.

Trans women are men.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/10/2024 22:30

EVERYONE knows trans women are men. Even the most ardent genderists.

If trans women were women no one would be fighting for them.

Where is all the support for the Afghan girls and women who have no rights?

Trans women matter because they are MEN.

Yes. Tofu appears to have missed most of your post and cherry picked the statement she could defend.

MTF trans people who identify as women are male. The word for an adult human male person is a man. It's not a value judgment, it's a clear statement of fact.

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