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Survey at work using the term cis woman

1000 replies

SuzanneRogers · 06/10/2024 13:16

So I filled all the survey, very happy at work, public secror.
Note that this survey is outsourced by another survey organisation.

Then I come to the last bit please describe your role in the organisation, did that, and then how would you describe your sex or gender?

( Can’t remember exactly how the question was phrased )but the only option for women was “cis woman.”

Quite cross about this and I’m not sure how to best articulate this to my managers who, to be fair never use this term and will not have had any input to designing the survey. Any input welcome.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
SpudleyLass · 06/10/2024 21:07

Catiette · 06/10/2024 21:06

Are the adult human females of Afghanistan all cisgender women? Is that your answer? You seem quite convinced that's an "easy" solution above - but it suggests you've maybe not seen or thought about my 4 issues post...?

Edited

Ah but cisgender Afghanistan women are privileged, you see, as their sex somehow matches their gender woo woo spirit soul thingamajig.

Their oppression is actually validation of their womanhood, so they should cease to be bigots by complaining so much.

Thfrog · 06/10/2024 21:08

throwaway199 · 06/10/2024 21:06

What is offensive about it? It would be very helpful if you could explain why it is offensive as it looks clear and concise to me.

Sex at birth isn't always as straightforward a question as it may seem

Waitwhat23 · 06/10/2024 21:09

soupfiend · 06/10/2024 21:05

Do you have a gender (identity) - if yes, please enter it here

The Scottish census in 2022 asked -

Are you - male or female?

And then

Are you trans or do you have a trans history?

Which would have made sense (and meant they got accurate data) until they fucked it up and allowed self id for the sex question, making the information worthless.

Thfrog · 06/10/2024 21:09

soupfiend · 06/10/2024 21:07

Incredibly rare and you're right that they shouldnt be dragged into this

However by the time they get to filling out a work questionnaire their sex has been determined for many years. Sex at birth, is not the same as 'sex determined at birth'.

Becuase your sex doesnt change.

Not as rare as you may think but I get your point. It needs to be worded carefully so it is sex at birth as you said. None of this sex observed or assigned at birth.

FranticFrankie · 06/10/2024 21:10

This reply has been deleted

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SinnerBoy · 06/10/2024 21:10

Helleofabore · Today 20:40

Yes, you've put that very well. I hope that the fence sitters can understand the importance of what you explained.

Catiette · 06/10/2024 21:10

Aha - Option #5. Thank you, @SpudleyLass. I'll add it to my list. I find the idea pretty upsetting, tbh, but honestly do begin to wonder if some people could genuinely think this, in the absence of further feedback...

soupfiend · 06/10/2024 21:11

Thfrog · 06/10/2024 21:09

Not as rare as you may think but I get your point. It needs to be worded carefully so it is sex at birth as you said. None of this sex observed or assigned at birth.

Agreed

Savingthehedgehogs · 06/10/2024 21:11

I can’t wait for this whole sorry episode to pass - a bit like punk rockers or David Bowie hair. It’s a trend that is burning out and some return to common sense thank goodness.

No you can’t just decide to erase 51% of the population with this insanity. If someone calls something an offensive discriminatory slur it’s not for YOU to carry on anyway. Seriously. Just fucking stop. Grow up. Get some fucking therapy.

SpudleyLass · 06/10/2024 21:11

Catiette · 06/10/2024 21:10

Aha - Option #5. Thank you, @SpudleyLass. I'll add it to my list. I find the idea pretty upsetting, tbh, but honestly do begin to wonder if some people could genuinely think this, in the absence of further feedback...

I've truly seen some trans identified males resent women for being harassed by men, unfortunately.

Helleofabore · 06/10/2024 21:11

It seems we need a reminder on every x pages:

No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is. How can it be?
The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

CoffeeGood · 06/10/2024 21:12

MaybeImbad · 06/10/2024 16:26

MaybeImbad · Today 16:25

Does it matter tho? If trans women are women why can’t they tick the women box? Why do you have to divide people?
if it’s helpful for trans people to have a separate category then go for it 🙌🏻 but why do you need to rename women?

Because transwomen are NOT women. I don't want to rename women, I want to keep the meaning exactly as it has always been. I don't want people with a penis to ever tick the box that says "woman". They can have "man", or "transwoman".

Thfrog · 06/10/2024 21:12

Helleofabore · 06/10/2024 20:40

@SuzanneRogers

Based on posts from another thread where a poster assured us that cis women are what we should be talking about when referring to two male boxers who competed in the female category of boxing in the Paris Olympics, I decided that we need as many women who read these threads to understand just what that term means.

The term 'cis' is now meaningless because it also now includes any male person who has a DSD yet has a body that is **formed around the production of small gametes, ie. a male person with a difference of sex development that have testes or testes tissue. Such as Caster Semenya.

Therefore, female people have no unique words that describe just those female people who have a body ^^formed around the production of large gametes.

None.

There is no word left for female people. Because even male people are now saying they are also ‘female’.

Because 'girl' and 'woman' both now include:

1 Male person who has been incorrectly registered as a female at birth, but has a male body **.

2 Any male person has now claimed a transgender identity using those labels.

3 And any person who has a female body ^^.

Under the label of 'girl' and 'woman', extreme transgender activists have been telling us for years that those labels break down into two types of girls or women:

Cis and Transwomen/transgirls.

These terms mean:

Cis = (1) Male person who has been incorrectly registered as a female at birth, but has a male body **

and

= (3) Any person who has a female body^^

Trans = (2) Any male person has now claimed a transgender identity using those labels.

There is no unique word to mean female people who have a body ^^ formed around the production of large gametes.

Cis is now shown to be meaningless and it always was.

It is also misogynistic because it leaves female people with no unique word for their needs.

(sorry, the formatting on this post is probably higgly piggly, hopefully the pic helps)

That's a good diagram thanks. I think I'm getting the arguement now

DadJoke · 06/10/2024 21:12

Catiette · 06/10/2024 20:47

Woah, this is why I don't do AIBU. Too fast!

@DadJoke, if you ever find me again 😂. From my options, you appear to be a #4? My impression of you is that you're more open-minded than this, though, so maybe you can talk me through the rationale behind the inconsistency in your use of "woman". I'd be especially interested in the impact of this newly introduced ambiguity in different contexts. Two examples:

  1. The Amnesty post that claimed Afghan women were "identifying" as such, and that caused considerable distress with people calling it out as issue #1 in my list above

  2. The confusion I witnessed in a group of young teens recently as they simply failed to understand that some girls in Afghanistan have disguised themselves as boys to access an education - I'm really not joking when I say that a large proportion of them appeared to think that this meant the girls had "become" - (their word, used repeatedly) - boys.

Do you see issues with these?

Edited

My use of women was not ambiguous. Women are oppressed in Afghanistan. I wouldn’t have said “identified as” women.

The teens concerned have clearly not had enough PSHE to understand the difference gender identity and gender expression.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/10/2024 21:13

There's zero point pleading with sexist men to respect women, whatever their "gender" identity.

ArabellaScott · 06/10/2024 21:13

Evilartsgrad · 06/10/2024 20:45

How exactly does it hurt you to be so described?

Oh, wait, it doesn't. Your objection is because it acknowledges trans people. Can't have that, can we ?🙄

Who are you to tell.someone how they feel, how they should identify?

YellowphantGrey · 06/10/2024 21:14

TofuTart · 06/10/2024 19:59

See, this is where we differ.
You say the "handmaid reference upholds the patriarchy" - I'd say that's the GC/rad fem viewpoint that does that
Anyone who doesn't agree with the GC view must be a man.
They "type" think like a man (whatever that means) therefore must be a man.
Women are painted as vulnerable, don't know their own minds - (whether it's women committing crimes, or trans men must have just been groomed/vulnerable.
The policing of what a woman should or shouldn't look like (butch women being told they look like a man, should they be in here etc)
They're the ones who are upholding the patriarchy.

You sound confused? You've definitely mixed up a lot in your reply. I can't be bothered to unpick and explain because I already know how you reply.

You do you.

SpudleyLass · 06/10/2024 21:14

DadJoke · 06/10/2024 21:12

My use of women was not ambiguous. Women are oppressed in Afghanistan. I wouldn’t have said “identified as” women.

The teens concerned have clearly not had enough PSHE to understand the difference gender identity and gender expression.

I think we have a more pressing need for men of all persuasions to respect women, you know of the female variety.

Rather than trying to force another religion on impressionable children.

Catiette · 06/10/2024 21:15

DadJoke · 06/10/2024 21:12

My use of women was not ambiguous. Women are oppressed in Afghanistan. I wouldn’t have said “identified as” women.

The teens concerned have clearly not had enough PSHE to understand the difference gender identity and gender expression.

Hah! I think it's rather that they've had too much PSHE!

But we are getting somewhere here.

Am I right in understanding that you're arguing for a distinction in which "I'm a woman" is reserved for adult human females sans gender identity, and "I identify as a woman" for trans-identifying males (an offensive term to you, perhaps, but necessary for the sake of clarity)?

I actually think this has some potential.

It still requires one hell of a concession from women, but offers a compromise position for the first time in this thread, perhaps...

I hadn't realised in all your past posts that you were adhering to this subtle distinction, though. Could its subtlety, and the potential for inconsistent use and consequent ambiguity, be an issue?

OchonAgusOchonOh · 06/10/2024 21:16

DadJoke · 06/10/2024 21:03

That does not collect the information they require in a way that’s not offensive, and also does not answer my question.

So it's OK go use wording that is offensive to women but not up use wording that is offensive to trans individuals? As ever, your misogyny shines bright

Although I struggle to see what is offensive about asking an individual with a gender identity what that identity is.

ArabellaScott · 06/10/2024 21:17

The irony of a man called Dadjoke mansplaining to women on Mumsnet why they should just accept what he's decided to call them is quite something.

TofuTart · 06/10/2024 21:17

(Hopefully peeks out from corner of playground

You just see it all as one big game (playground?) maybe that's why people aren't engaging with you.
Knowing that you aren't asking anything in good faith.

Savingthehedgehogs · 06/10/2024 21:17

ArabellaScott · 06/10/2024 21:17

The irony of a man called Dadjoke mansplaining to women on Mumsnet why they should just accept what he's decided to call them is quite something.

Agreed it’s anything but funny

SpudleyLass · 06/10/2024 21:18

TofuTart · 06/10/2024 21:17

(Hopefully peeks out from corner of playground

You just see it all as one big game (playground?) maybe that's why people aren't engaging with you.
Knowing that you aren't asking anything in good faith.

Ah, you're back. Did you read my question to you asking how we can differentiate between men pretending to be trans and those genuinely trans?

Helleofabore · 06/10/2024 21:19

Thfrog · 06/10/2024 21:12

That's a good diagram thanks. I think I'm getting the arguement now

It is a meaningless term. It was repurposed by someone and others used it but the reality is, it was never fit for the purpose that they tried to make it fit.

Plus, it is actually an act of abuse to recategorise society in this way. As I posted just up thread, it is not a neutral act to label someone or groups in society as having a belief that they do not have. That is exactly what 'cis' does. It does not mean 'people who do not have a transgender identity'. It forces philosophical belief.

It forces linguistically, that all of society has a 'gender identity'. When this is false. Most people don't believe in this philosophical belief. Yet, the forced term 'cis' means 'those people whose gender identity matches their sex'.

There are so many issues with the word 'cis'.

Yet, people are labelled all sorts of offensive and derogatory things for rejecting it.

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