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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Survey at work using the term cis woman

1000 replies

SuzanneRogers · 06/10/2024 13:16

So I filled all the survey, very happy at work, public secror.
Note that this survey is outsourced by another survey organisation.

Then I come to the last bit please describe your role in the organisation, did that, and then how would you describe your sex or gender?

( Can’t remember exactly how the question was phrased )but the only option for women was “cis woman.”

Quite cross about this and I’m not sure how to best articulate this to my managers who, to be fair never use this term and will not have had any input to designing the survey. Any input welcome.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Savingthehedgehogs · 06/10/2024 21:45

TwistedWonder · 06/10/2024 21:44

In a decades time it’ll be bleeped out like the N word us now

Absolutely!! If it’s ever uttered again.

lifeturnsonadime · 06/10/2024 21:45

TofuTart · 06/10/2024 21:42

men in Afghanistan are the oppressor. Women are the oppressed

Agree

I would wager a massive bet that not one single male in Afghanistan has identified as a woman because there's nothing in it for them

Or maybe because trans people will still exist, they just don't feel safe coming out, and so don't.
Not "because there's nothing in it for them."

Oh for the love of god. Gender is a social construct which is only ever going to prevail in privileged societies.

There is nothing wrong with men preferring 'soft / pink/ what ever discriptor things'. There is nothing wrong with women being fierce, liking sport, blah blah blah.....

You can do all of these things with the remit of your own sex class.

Gender is a stick that Western society is using to beat women over the head with.

Trans people only exist in societies with rigid/ opressive ideas of gender and ONLY exist where you have the privllege of being better off in the opposite set of sterotypes.

Helleofabore · 06/10/2024 21:45

TheHereticalOne · 06/10/2024 21:29

With respect, you may be well-educated in the sense of having higher qualifications and still deeply ignorant on many topics. I don't say this to be insulting, as I would absolutely apply that to myself in all sorts of cases. Your level of pay has absolutely nothing to do with the price of fish (again, as someone very nicely paid myself).

With those preliminaries out of the way, the rest of your response reads to me as though your understanding of this topic is roughly, "if you don't do this some people will be sad, I can't see how it affects me, and I can't immediately think how this might affect fundamental mechanisms and safeguards of society. Therefore everyone should just do it. Be kind." It would be like me wading into a topic on the Israel-Palestine conflict, knowing full well that I know only the bare basics of the history and contemporary events (which, I'm slightly embarrassed to say, is very much the case) and confidently stating that people should just not kill other people because war is bad and it's all very sad and therefore [Israel/Palestine] should obviously just stop, while shaking my head and wondering why everyone can't just be as level-headed and kind as me.

You've acknowledged the issues with women's sports. Have you given any thought to men being housed in women's prisons (see sexual assaults that have occurred in the UK and rapes, impregnation and prisons now supplying condoms across the pond)? Have you kept up with the lack of female-only provision in rape crisis centres (see ERCC)? Have you considered the legal issues now faced when transwomen are put forward to perform as appropriate same "gender" medical practitioners for intimate medical exams or strip-searches, and/or insist on women performing these on them? Have you kept up with the now countless successful employment tribunals of women discriminated against, harassed and forced out of employment for stating in the mildest and most reasonable of terms concerns about, for example, safeguarding, LGB rights or data integrity given men identifying as women and being treated for all purposes as such (with or without a GRC)? Have you considered the difficulties thrown into equal pay legislation by including men in the "female" pool for consideration and women in the male "comparator" pool? Have you considered the little girls, let alone women, now expected to share changing rooms with naked men and boys (at school, in leisure centres and so on)? Have you considered that women and girls are now prevented from raising the alarm when a man follows them into the toilet? Have you considered schools that now house boys in south the girls on school trips or in girls tents for Brownies and Guides without informing the girls' parents, thereby contravention standard safeguarding procedures on the basis of sex, while pretending they are not doing so? Have you considered the women and girls who, for religious reasons, must now simply quietly self-exclude from these many areas of public life in order to avoid contravening their religion? Have you considered the rest who self-exclude simply so they don't have to deal with this sort of thing or risk being labelled a bigot? Have you considered how equal opportunities initiatives designed to further the opportunities of women and girls into areas they have traditionally been underrepresented (scholarships, women-only shortlists etc.) are being lost to boys and men who are already overrepresented? Have you considered the effect on public healthcare messaging and the measurable (and measured) difficulty unclear messaging (e.g. around "those with a cervix" rather than "women") has caused those women not lucky enough to be as well educated as the two of us, or who do not speak English as their first language? Have you considered the fact that men's health messaging has not been commensurately altered to include transmen? Have you considered that, in teaching girls (and boys) that there is inherently something more to bring a woman than simply being female and growing up, we are insideously but necessarily entrenching sexist stereotypes we had made great strides towards throwing off just a generation ago?

Have you considered that the distinct, robust language needed to describe these things is being obfuscated beyond any usefulness and that any attempt to meaningfully and frankly distinguish between women and men who consider themselves women is decried as offensive?

If you haven't already, I would highly recommend starting with Kathleen Stock's 'Material Girls', which is an incredibly polite and generous consideration of the basic issues, followed by Helen Joyce's data-heavy 'Trans' if you're interested in thinking about all this more deeply.

Thank you.

Thfrog · 06/10/2024 21:46

SinnerBoy · 06/10/2024 21:44

Thfrog · Today 21:40

+ + sex is observed and recorded at birth, not assigned. + +

I don't think it should be "observed" I think it should just be

Well yes, but it is observed and recorded for birth certificates...

They might get it wrong though the person who observes it could be pissed or incapable and about to be struck off

NewGreenDuck · 06/10/2024 21:47

DadJoke · 06/10/2024 21:33

No, I am saying both transgender and cisgender women are women and that women are oppressed in Afghanistan.

And you are conflating women with gender critical people.

Trans women, by their very nature, are biological men. There aren't 2 types of women, there are just women. No one changes sex. Every cell in the body will have that sex within it. Put on a skirt, change name, have surgery, it doesn't change sex.
It's foolish to say otherwise.

SinnerBoy · 06/10/2024 21:49

Savingthehedgehogs · Today 21:41

DadJoke · Today 21:39
+ + Mirriam-Webster says: + +

It is a slur - an offensive slur - the research will catch up eventually.

Just as a more recent version of my 1967 OED, regarding the word "N**r" does - hopefully.

Manxexile · 06/10/2024 21:49

MartinCrieffsLemon · 06/10/2024 16:47

Every term is "made up"

In a sense that's true - but meaningful words have a foundation in reality.

If you are used to driving in the UK and then drive a car in France you will find that the words "right" and "left" are not just made up - they actually mean something real.

"Cis" does not

UtopiaPlanitia · 06/10/2024 21:50

Catiette · 06/10/2024 16:47

I get you don’t like it, but that’s how it is

That's how people use these words.

OK, I'm taking that as the closest I can get to a response to my attempts to understand why the women of Afghanistan no longer deserve their word.

It's not far off what I expected. Probably best summed up, in wonderful '90s teen vernacular, as "tough cheese".

I find it devastating.

Edited

Catiette, here's an answer of sorts to your question.

In August, Amnesty International used the following statement:
Under the Taliban, women and girls were discriminated against in many ways, for the 'crime' of identifying as a girl.

Here's journalist Susan Dalgety referring to it on Twitter:
https://x.com/DalgetySusan/status/1827317532547797165
'This is incredulous. Amnesty International forces gender identity ideology into an article* about the worst abuse of women and girls anywhere in the world. Afghan woman and girls don’t ‘identify’ as anything. Their sex is female. That is why the Taliban oppress them...'

Amnesty received so much criticism that they changed the wording to:
'Under the Taliban, women and girls were discriminated against in many ways just for being women and girls.'

TofuTart · 06/10/2024 21:51

There is nothing wrong with men preferring 'soft / pink/ what ever discriptor things'. There is nothing wrong with women being fierce, liking sport, blah blah blah.....
You can do all of these things with the remit of your own sex class

Well, I completely agree there with you at least.

AgileGreenSeal · 06/10/2024 21:51

DadJoke · 06/10/2024 21:01

You aren’t willing to answer - fair enough. I’m not trying to out you.

Edited

I don’t know why you’re having so much difficulty understanding me.

This ‘cis’ nonsense seems to be causing people to lose their basic common sense.
I’m not a man trying to become a woman… as I explained before I am female. Have been all my life (as if that could change! 🙄)
When I was young I was a girl.
Now that I’m an adult I am a woman.

What don’t you understand?

ArabellaScott · 06/10/2024 21:52

SinnerBoy · 06/10/2024 21:40

ArabellaScott · Today 21:25

Cis is akin to 'heathen' or the Arabic word for non believer that is also used as an offensive term.

A derivative of that word is also highly offensive in South Africa, when applied to Black people.

Yes. Why I didn't type it out!

Many people find 'cis' offensive. It's classed as a slur on X and can be reported on here if anyone uses it against another person.

FrippEnos · 06/10/2024 21:53

SpudleyLass · 06/10/2024 21:43

Whilst you're here, how do I tell the difference between a man pretending to be a trans and a trans identified male?

As I posted before, there are no people pretending to be trans, under self ID all trans people have to do is say that they are trans.

But it is funny how now those that self ID and give trans people a bad name are, even by the trans lobby, just pretending.

Its seems that the trans group can have their cake and eat it. (or use it to beat people that disagree with them over the head with it).

SpudleyLass · 06/10/2024 21:54

Sorry to go off on a bit of a tangent here, but trying to clarify the language over all of this reminds me of this ;

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js5-OsdvqTY

Catiette · 06/10/2024 21:54

Warning - seriously TLDR (without the TLDR - I think my views are fairly clear already!) post coming up. It's something I wrote entirely for myself - I find writing a way to clarify my own thinking. I never intended to post it. But it feels so relevant now, here goes...

NB. I wrote it attempting to address, for my own peace-of-mind, every single neat little sidestep or disingenuous denial of this issue that we continually see in threads like these, and I hope it does this - whether or not other readers choose to acknowledge this and to counter these arguments meaningfully by first looking them in the face...

...And also whether or not they choose to read it for that matter - no worries if not, as it's loooong - get ready to scroll rapidly past if you can't face it, and advance apologies for the aching mouse finger to anyone who feels that way...! 😅

Catiette · 06/10/2024 21:55

Fundamentally, we're not posting as an intellectual exercise, or to be provocative, or as distraction. The vast majority of us certainly aren’t posting because we're in some way "transphobic" or motivated by “removing” another group’s rights. In fact, it can be distressing to see our concerns misrepresented in this way, because it indicates, perhaps more than anything else, the extent of the misunderstanding we need to overcome (or, more cynically, the ruthlessness of our opponents). The truth is, quite simply, that this is about us. This movement is hurting us – really hurting us. I'd say it's changed my life and I don't think that would be an exaggeration. (I know my life could be changed in an infinity of worse ways than this, but...)

To see such wholesale dismissal of who and what I am, and of my needs – and to live through the organised destruction of the language I need to be able to express this – has been frankly, fucking terrifying. I nearly put “women” instead of “my” there, as I wanted to refer to adult human females as a collective, whatever their political views – but I’ve been told that would be morally wrong. In fact, many people see the three words I just used instead of it as evidence of bigotry. Do you see how that perspective could be frightening to me?

51% of human beings are are uniquely vulnerable because of their physical bodies. These vulnerabilities alone mean that every minute, every hour, every day, innumerable members of this demographic die, or fall ill, or are injured, or abused. Millions are enslaved, because of their bodies. Hundreds of millions are living in fear, because of their relative physical weakness. Millions upon millions will suffer in ways the other half of the population will never have to contemplate, due to their capacity for childbirth, or the presumption of this. This 51% of humanity used to have a name of its own – but this word has now been repurposed. Individuals who attempt to name this demographic, in this or other ways – to advocate for its unique needs – are increasingly condemned as unspeakably vile.

Scroll through these threads to see the litany of harms that this removal of our language is causing, facilitating or compounding. Rape. Abuse. Trauma. Compromised health. Ruined careers. Anxiety, in spaces where we didn’t used to feel anxious. Fear, of voicing what we think and believe, or even who we believe we are. And undocumented self-exclusion, from everything from rape support to swimming pools. Decade-old measures to protect us from male violence – infinitely precious social contracts, statistically proven to work – are being deliberately dismantled, without the knowledge of many. We are being put at increased physical risk.

Yet despite that, women’s concerns about our language are dismissed as invalid, hysterical or bigotted – unworthy of respect or meaningful engagement. TERFs. Dinosaurs. Cunts (do you see the irony?!) Even as the "opposing sides'" parallel expressions of fear and distress about language are recognised (even, in fact, as women listen and reflect on these, and seek a middle ground), women’s own entirely equivalent feelings are met with abuse and threats. Can you see the inconsistency, the double standards, the hypocrisy? There’s nothing that can rationalise or justify the sheer extent of it. The only way to understand it is to realise how little this 51%, the group previously permitted the word “women”, is actually valued and heard and respected.

After all those years of thinking I was seen as equal in most ways, to realise this has been utterly shattering.Before this movement, I thought we were getting there. I found it genuinely uplifting to see how much progress had been made in such a short time. Now, I think I had it the wrong way round, and the recentness of our hard-won rights, instead, makes me feel vulnerable. Think about it. About 100 years ago, women had no vote. That’s within almost-living memory. About 30 years ago, women were legally subjected to marital rape. That's me-as-property, within our lifetime.

Right now, women in Afghanistan are effectively imprisoned in their own homes because of their sex. (To suggest that this is due to their gender identity would be to deny the source of their oppression; it would be to imply that some women are exempt from it, and that others are “identifying” into it. It would be an appalling imposition of western language and values on people who may not even have heard of these concepts. It would be, in short, exactly what Amnesty International did in a recent publication. Because they no longer had the language necessary to state the truth).

Do you really think, given all this, that we can afford to lose the word “women”? That we should be pressured (not asked) to give it up?

“But not all women agree with you,” you say (or would, if you had the words). Well, of course not – when in the history of humanity has everyone agreed on anything?! If you think about it, back when the suffragettes were fighting for the vote, many women favoured the status quo and many weren’t bothered either way. It “didn’t impact us” directly, after all – not in a measurable, individualised, daily way. But there was a distressing bigger picture, wasn’t there? Whenever I hear the question often levelled at GC feminists – “But how does it affect you?” – it reminds me of that. Once again, 100 years since our enfranchisement, we’re back to, “You don’t need a distinct political voice of your own as women. Your identity is to be subsumed into men’s – men will determine who you are and what you need. Be quiet, don’t argue.”

Those of us who see it are appalled. Those of us who don’t are entitled to their views, too, but I truly believe that some of those (not all – and who am I to say how many, or who?) just can’t bear to see it. I know from my own experience that the realisation is intensely distressing to live with, and it’s far easier to live in ignorance of it.

I do now believe that sexism is the most insidious, inescapable prejudice of all. I know that’s problematic to say in many ways – in fact, I think that the injunction against saying so only goes to prove it: feminism isn’t fashionable for a reason. Still, while I apologise for any offence caused, I invite you to consider the following…

The N word on white lips is unthinkable – thank God. Spastic? So few people would say it now, and rightly. Wrong pronouns? The common consensus is that it's about basic respect and actively prevents harm...

Now compare all that to porn.

The physical degradation of women, for men’s viewing pleasure, in a flourishing industry exploiting hundreds of thousands. Where’s the parallel social consensus there? Well, there is some: it’s fine (or, perhaps, problematic, but fundamentally unavoidable); sex work is work, after all (and it’s not just about women, you bigot). Rape Reddits? Unpleasant, but what some lads want (and no one’s actually being hurt in chats). And we can’t police the internet or restrict freedom of speech and association, can we?

Just take a moment to think about the sheer irony of these defences in the light of the current attacks on women’s words and spaces. Just think about the chasm between society’s attitudes to porn – actual, physical abuse in an industry of suffering thousands – and its attitude to the N-word.

Even then you may find yourself twisting and resisting and excusing and rationalising, because patriarchal values are the air we breathe. What courage it takes to accept that our air is poisonous – to live with that knowledge and to try to spread the unwanted warning. Kill the messenger, right?

So thanks, in a sense, to this ideology and its embrace across the West. It’s helped me to wake up when nothing else did. It’s changed how I see this world, and how I experience it.

And if your instinct is still to dismiss my thoughts as extreme, please try – honestly, just try – to compare that instinct to your empathy for similar claims to distress made by TRAs, and ask yourself: what's the difference?

And is that difference objectively enough to be so very certain that I’m right?

Helleofabore · 06/10/2024 21:55

For those reading along on this thread, just a reminder that we have recently been shown just how people's transgender identities are based on philosophical belief.

Because to be a person with a transgender identity is not based on having gender dysphoria. We have been told this now by professional academics as well as trans people themselves.

Therefore the only commonality for people with transgender identities is that their philosophical belief. Meaning no one needs to comply with another persons philosophical belief. No one.

For instance, taking the example of a male person who believes they are female.
No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. They are not a woman.

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is. How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

So, no matter how much a person wants or demands others comply with their philosophical belief and treat them as the opposite sex to which they materially are, no other person in society is required to believe this too.

And many people choose not to comply with language demands that reflect any other philosophical belief another person holds, why is this one different?

Why are so many people being shamed for not complying with the demands of another person's philsophical belief?

CoffeeGood · 06/10/2024 21:55

DadJoke · 06/10/2024 21:33

No, I am saying both transgender and cisgender women are women and that women are oppressed in Afghanistan.

And you are conflating women with gender critical people.

Transgender women are NOT women, they are men. I am more than happy for them to tick the box that classifies them as transwomen if they wish. They absolutely CANNOT tick the box that classifies them as "women" because they are not. Women do not have a penis. Cisgender women are simply women.

We agree on the fact that women are most definitely oppressed in Afghanistan.

lifeturnsonadime · 06/10/2024 21:55

UtopiaPlanitia · 06/10/2024 21:50

Catiette, here's an answer of sorts to your question.

In August, Amnesty International used the following statement:
Under the Taliban, women and girls were discriminated against in many ways, for the 'crime' of identifying as a girl.

Here's journalist Susan Dalgety referring to it on Twitter:
https://x.com/DalgetySusan/status/1827317532547797165
'This is incredulous. Amnesty International forces gender identity ideology into an article* about the worst abuse of women and girls anywhere in the world. Afghan woman and girls don’t ‘identify’ as anything. Their sex is female. That is why the Taliban oppress them...'

Amnesty received so much criticism that they changed the wording to:
'Under the Taliban, women and girls were discriminated against in many ways just for being women and girls.'

I mean this is basic.

'identifying as' is a luxury belief.

These girls had no choice.

It's sickening that this had to be pointed out to Amnesty International.

Manxexile · 06/10/2024 21:56

MartinCrieffsLemon · 06/10/2024 16:52

Errr

The meaning of words changes ALL the time

Language is an evolving concept

The meaning of some words changes over time.

The meaning of right and left and up and down haven't changed and are unlikely to do so as they help to describe and to understand the real world. If those words changed their meanings or if different people started using them differently, chaos would result.

The meanings of man and woman aren't going to change...

DadJoke · 06/10/2024 21:58

lifeturnsonadime · 06/10/2024 21:42

It's obvious. Dad Joke is an advocate for male people.

A TRA or an MRA. S(he) doesn't give a shit about the impact on women. We are not relevant.

MRA, like gender critical people, oppose trans rights, and you are once again conflating women with gender critical people.

I’m happy to discuss how to capture this information without using the word cisgender and without offending transgender people or non-transgender people, but it’s never gone well in the past.

I tried this, but there were objections.

Are you:
A man
A woman
Non-binary

Are you transgender?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/10/2024 21:58

And you are conflating women with gender critical people

No one is "conflating women with gender critical people". All feminist women are critical of gender to some extent and most genderists make some exceptions to their insistence that some males should be treated as women at all times, even you.

In the majority, when women are asked whether they are comfortable with penis bearers (inclusive term) in their spaces, they say no. So it's the views of you and your privileged female friends who are in the minority.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4593730-yougov-study-attitudes-to-transgender-rights-have-eroded

nutmeg7 · 06/10/2024 21:59

And nobody is literally born in the wrong body. What is that even supposed to mean? You are born in your own body.

And I understand that some people sincerely have come to the conclusion that “being born in the wrong body” is at the root of all their distress, but it can’t literally be true.

And that is what psychology and psychiatry is for.

Waitwhat23 · 06/10/2024 21:59

Catiette · 06/10/2024 21:55

Fundamentally, we're not posting as an intellectual exercise, or to be provocative, or as distraction. The vast majority of us certainly aren’t posting because we're in some way "transphobic" or motivated by “removing” another group’s rights. In fact, it can be distressing to see our concerns misrepresented in this way, because it indicates, perhaps more than anything else, the extent of the misunderstanding we need to overcome (or, more cynically, the ruthlessness of our opponents). The truth is, quite simply, that this is about us. This movement is hurting us – really hurting us. I'd say it's changed my life and I don't think that would be an exaggeration. (I know my life could be changed in an infinity of worse ways than this, but...)

To see such wholesale dismissal of who and what I am, and of my needs – and to live through the organised destruction of the language I need to be able to express this – has been frankly, fucking terrifying. I nearly put “women” instead of “my” there, as I wanted to refer to adult human females as a collective, whatever their political views – but I’ve been told that would be morally wrong. In fact, many people see the three words I just used instead of it as evidence of bigotry. Do you see how that perspective could be frightening to me?

51% of human beings are are uniquely vulnerable because of their physical bodies. These vulnerabilities alone mean that every minute, every hour, every day, innumerable members of this demographic die, or fall ill, or are injured, or abused. Millions are enslaved, because of their bodies. Hundreds of millions are living in fear, because of their relative physical weakness. Millions upon millions will suffer in ways the other half of the population will never have to contemplate, due to their capacity for childbirth, or the presumption of this. This 51% of humanity used to have a name of its own – but this word has now been repurposed. Individuals who attempt to name this demographic, in this or other ways – to advocate for its unique needs – are increasingly condemned as unspeakably vile.

Scroll through these threads to see the litany of harms that this removal of our language is causing, facilitating or compounding. Rape. Abuse. Trauma. Compromised health. Ruined careers. Anxiety, in spaces where we didn’t used to feel anxious. Fear, of voicing what we think and believe, or even who we believe we are. And undocumented self-exclusion, from everything from rape support to swimming pools. Decade-old measures to protect us from male violence – infinitely precious social contracts, statistically proven to work – are being deliberately dismantled, without the knowledge of many. We are being put at increased physical risk.

Yet despite that, women’s concerns about our language are dismissed as invalid, hysterical or bigotted – unworthy of respect or meaningful engagement. TERFs. Dinosaurs. Cunts (do you see the irony?!) Even as the "opposing sides'" parallel expressions of fear and distress about language are recognised (even, in fact, as women listen and reflect on these, and seek a middle ground), women’s own entirely equivalent feelings are met with abuse and threats. Can you see the inconsistency, the double standards, the hypocrisy? There’s nothing that can rationalise or justify the sheer extent of it. The only way to understand it is to realise how little this 51%, the group previously permitted the word “women”, is actually valued and heard and respected.

After all those years of thinking I was seen as equal in most ways, to realise this has been utterly shattering.Before this movement, I thought we were getting there. I found it genuinely uplifting to see how much progress had been made in such a short time. Now, I think I had it the wrong way round, and the recentness of our hard-won rights, instead, makes me feel vulnerable. Think about it. About 100 years ago, women had no vote. That’s within almost-living memory. About 30 years ago, women were legally subjected to marital rape. That's me-as-property, within our lifetime.

Right now, women in Afghanistan are effectively imprisoned in their own homes because of their sex. (To suggest that this is due to their gender identity would be to deny the source of their oppression; it would be to imply that some women are exempt from it, and that others are “identifying” into it. It would be an appalling imposition of western language and values on people who may not even have heard of these concepts. It would be, in short, exactly what Amnesty International did in a recent publication. Because they no longer had the language necessary to state the truth).

Do you really think, given all this, that we can afford to lose the word “women”? That we should be pressured (not asked) to give it up?

“But not all women agree with you,” you say (or would, if you had the words). Well, of course not – when in the history of humanity has everyone agreed on anything?! If you think about it, back when the suffragettes were fighting for the vote, many women favoured the status quo and many weren’t bothered either way. It “didn’t impact us” directly, after all – not in a measurable, individualised, daily way. But there was a distressing bigger picture, wasn’t there? Whenever I hear the question often levelled at GC feminists – “But how does it affect you?” – it reminds me of that. Once again, 100 years since our enfranchisement, we’re back to, “You don’t need a distinct political voice of your own as women. Your identity is to be subsumed into men’s – men will determine who you are and what you need. Be quiet, don’t argue.”

Those of us who see it are appalled. Those of us who don’t are entitled to their views, too, but I truly believe that some of those (not all – and who am I to say how many, or who?) just can’t bear to see it. I know from my own experience that the realisation is intensely distressing to live with, and it’s far easier to live in ignorance of it.

I do now believe that sexism is the most insidious, inescapable prejudice of all. I know that’s problematic to say in many ways – in fact, I think that the injunction against saying so only goes to prove it: feminism isn’t fashionable for a reason. Still, while I apologise for any offence caused, I invite you to consider the following…

The N word on white lips is unthinkable – thank God. Spastic? So few people would say it now, and rightly. Wrong pronouns? The common consensus is that it's about basic respect and actively prevents harm...

Now compare all that to porn.

The physical degradation of women, for men’s viewing pleasure, in a flourishing industry exploiting hundreds of thousands. Where’s the parallel social consensus there? Well, there is some: it’s fine (or, perhaps, problematic, but fundamentally unavoidable); sex work is work, after all (and it’s not just about women, you bigot). Rape Reddits? Unpleasant, but what some lads want (and no one’s actually being hurt in chats). And we can’t police the internet or restrict freedom of speech and association, can we?

Just take a moment to think about the sheer irony of these defences in the light of the current attacks on women’s words and spaces. Just think about the chasm between society’s attitudes to porn – actual, physical abuse in an industry of suffering thousands – and its attitude to the N-word.

Even then you may find yourself twisting and resisting and excusing and rationalising, because patriarchal values are the air we breathe. What courage it takes to accept that our air is poisonous – to live with that knowledge and to try to spread the unwanted warning. Kill the messenger, right?

So thanks, in a sense, to this ideology and its embrace across the West. It’s helped me to wake up when nothing else did. It’s changed how I see this world, and how I experience it.

And if your instinct is still to dismiss my thoughts as extreme, please try – honestly, just try – to compare that instinct to your empathy for similar claims to distress made by TRAs, and ask yourself: what's the difference?

And is that difference objectively enough to be so very certain that I’m right?

Edited

Bloody brilliant post.

FrippEnos · 06/10/2024 22:00

Because to be a person with a transgender identity is not based on having gender dysphoria. We have been told this now by professional academics as well as trans people themselves.

I know that Buck Angel, Blare White and Marcus Dib are not favourites on here, but one of the things they have repeatedly stated is that to be trans you need to be gender dysphoric as to deny them this is to deny them their identity.
But then they have also said that one of the aims of Trans people is to 'pass' as otherwise what is the point of being trans.

So even the term trans has been changed by the TRAs and the trans Lobby to mean something different to what it did.

lifeturnsonadime · 06/10/2024 22:01

DadJoke · 06/10/2024 21:58

MRA, like gender critical people, oppose trans rights, and you are once again conflating women with gender critical people.

I’m happy to discuss how to capture this information without using the word cisgender and without offending transgender people or non-transgender people, but it’s never gone well in the past.

I tried this, but there were objections.

Are you:
A man
A woman
Non-binary

Are you transgender?

I don't give a shit what you are or what you think you might be.

I am a woman who knows that -

Human's can't change sex.

Women matter

Men are not women ( no matter how much they wish it to be so).

My beliefs align with the vast majority of the rest of human beings because we are not all deluded.

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