To not want to meet up with this rude woman?

[BucketBouquet]

My oldest friend, Jane, recently moved back to her university city; partly for personal reasons, but also because she was offered a job there. She hadn’t been working for a while when she got this job, so is playing catch-up financially, but she decided to treat herself to a birthday night out last weekend. I travelled to join her.

Jane has quite a few friends in this city who I haven’t met before. She was excited for me to meet them, but singled out one in particular, Marian. She was saying she just knew we’d get on great, she’s so lovely etc.

Anyway, we go out for Jane’s birthday meal. After about ten minutes, Marian and her boyfriend haven’t arrived. We order wine, but say we’ll wait for them to order the food. Ten minutes turns into 20, then 25… still no sign, not even a “sorry, running late” text. The waiter has been back asking if we know when we’ll be ready to order, then to try to sell us more wine (which Jane very quickly said no to, which I’m 90% sure was down to budget). I suggest it’s time to ring Marian and check she’s definitely still coming. Jane does; Marian says the traffic is terrible, but they’ll be there any minute. 10 more minutes pass; everyone is hungry and in need of a drink. I say I’ll treat us to some Prosecco as it’s a special occasion (mainly to pacify the waiter, who’s clearly concerned about a table for eight having been there over half an hour without ordering).

Marian and her boyfriend finally arrive 45 minutes late. Not a word of apology; just babble about the traffic, you wouldn’t believe it… no attempt to even pick up a menu. Jane’s clearly waiting for a pause in the monologue that I sense isn’t coming, so I say “Sorry to interrupt, but I think we really need to order; they’ve been over a few times now”. Marian umms and ahhhs over every bloody menu item like she’s got all day, rather than being 45 minutes late and having pissed everyone off. She eventually orders.

But the rudeness didn’t stop there. The woman barely paused for breath throughout the entire meal. We had chapter and verse on her job, their flat, her hobbies… she didn’t ask anyone else a question or show any interest. I didn’t even hear her wish Jane a happy birthday. (If you’re wondering about the boyfriend, he barely said a word. I don’t know if he was just ignorant or has been stunned into silence by living with Robogob.)

Anyway, yesterday Jane rang me. She thanked me again for coming down - but then said, “Oh, I meant to say, Marian really liked you! She wants to know when you’re coming down again so we can all go out”. I’m baffled, frankly. I don’t know how she could either like or dislike me; she never stopped talking for long enough for me to speak to her, and she certainly wasn’t interested in getting to know me (or anyone else). I can’t understand why on earth she’d want us to meet up.

I’m hoping the idea will just fall by the wayside, but if Jane pushes it I’ve no idea what to say. She’s such a kind person and clearly sees something in this woman; I don’t fancy telling her that the “lovely” friend she was so keen for me to meet is, in fact, a total arsewipe. Do I just grin and bear it?

Time with good friends is precious. I would tell Jane that you love being in her company and that you'd prefer to keep it that way. I wouldn't bring Marion up again, unless Jane specifically mentions that she wants Marion to be included. Chances are it may not amount to anything.

Why on earth wouldn't you just say you don't like Marion @BucketBouquet ?

This is another one of those problems men just don't have. In the same situation it'd just be "Mate, Deans a knob. He kept us hanging around for ages last time and then wouldn't shut up. I'd love to see you but I'm not travelling all that way for an evening that'll end up being all about Dean and his shit."

And then my friend would either shrug and go "You're right, he is a bit of a dick isn't he." or shrug and go "I think you're being a bit harsh but fair enough, I won't invite him."

because men are known for having really good, supportive and enduring friendships aren’t they?

Not a big deal. My two besties can't stand each other. I didn't realise initially but it's totally obvious there is no warmth when the others name comes up in conversation. I don't know why and I don't care. They are great friends to me and don't need to like each other

Same here. I have two lovely best friends - they just don’t seem to like each other. It’s not a big deal and I don’t care either. They live in different towns and so there is no crossover. I meet both of them separately or in different groups (one friend is from school, the other from uni) I am certainly not upset about it- why would I be? We are all different and not everyone is going to click with everyone. Thats just life 🤷🏻‍♀️

Yes? I've got friends who go back 30 years. We've supported each other through divorce, death of parents and spouses, and speak to each other (if not see each other) weekly.

I think that's true of most men. On the other hand we don't tend to bend over backwards to please our friends or pretend to be happy with a situation when we're not

it is very well known that the majority of men, as they age, often do not have the close life affirming friendships that women do.

Don’t pretend otherwise, it’s daft

@VimesandhisCardboardBoots your best mate of thirty years is… a woman?

hoping the idea will just fall by the wayside, but if Jane pushes it I’ve no

oh that so sweet of her, but really Jane I don’t think she is my cup of tea, fine in a crowd of us but a more intimate meet up just the 3 of us might be a bit difficult. I’m sure you can make my excuses

My best friend is actually, but my other 5 close friends are all men, 2 of whom I've known for just as long.

I think that's true of most men

It isn’t. and you know it

Maybe not most men - I don't know what research tells us about this - but certainly some. My son is in his 30s and has several really good male friends who he's known a long time.

You seem to be taking this lateness awfully personally. I would have ordered some starters and got on with the evening. You weren’t hosting, and it was someone else’s birthday, so I think if she’d not been permanently outraged, I’d let it go too.

However, if you don’t like a friend’s friend, best to be upfront about it, and say you didn’t like her and don’t want see her again. Most well-balanced adults will accept that not everything they like will automatically get along with one another.

OP, Marian is uncouth, leave her to Jane.
I would tell her you would prefer to catch up on your own.
I cannot believe ye sat there waiting for 45 minutes, very strange.
It would be very normal to have ordered and carried on after max 15 minutes.

I'd nod, smile and carry-on.

FWIW I would give Marian one more chance. You never know what she might have been dealing with prior to that night out, and if you see her again you'll very quickly be able to establish whether the nightmare night was a one off, or whether she is actually a living nightmare all the time. And if it's the latter, you can say to Jane that you really tried to like Marian, you even gave her a second chance to get to know, but unfortunately she just isn't your cup of tea. Writing her off after one meeting, no matter how terrible she was, probably wouldn't go down well with Jane. If you value Jane's friendship and she yours, she will appreciate your extra effort before writing Marian off.

Sorry, but I don't recognise that at all. My brother has a group of 3 friends from his school days who he sees every couple of months, despite them all living in different parts of the country. My Dad is a truly crappy father, but has friends from school, and has just spent months helping an old bandmate during his last few months alive because he had no-one else. My StepDad, (much better at the Dad stuff than my Dad) also has a good 4 really close friends.

I'd say the same about most of my male friends as well, they've all got other, longstanding friendships.

I'll give you that we may not see each other or talk quite as frequently as female friendships do, but I'd really take issue that most men don't have close friendships.

Anyway, it seems I've derailed the thread a bit, so I'll leave it there so OP can keep getting advice.

No wonder she liked you, she probably thought you’re an EXCELLENT listener 😂

i reckon most women on mumsnet will support my view that the majority of men do not have deep, enduring, supportive and regular contact with close friends

There's been studies done on male and female friendships. Anecdotal evidence doesn't change the facts that men struggle more with long term friendships.

I would have just ordered food. I don't mind sitting around talking after a meal if others are still eating. Especially at a birthday celebration.

Sounds like Jane was scattered that day for whatever reason.

Two of my best friends don't like each other. I would say they both can be quick to judge and controlling at their worst. They just rub each other wrong but are oddly similar.

Jane is desperate for friends. Your uni town looks very different when you move back for work. She wants you to tell her, kindly, that Marian isn't the answer. You tell her you don't want to waste an evening with your oldest friend waiting for someone who doesn't prioritise her. But that you'd be happy to check out that new book group/aerobics class/open poetry night/whatever with her.

Didn't mean to quote the whole thing, sorry.

You seem to be taking this lateness awfully personally. I would have ordered some starters and got on with the evening. You weren’t hosting, and it was someone else’s birthday, so I think if she’d not been permanently outraged, I’d let it go too.

I don’t see how I took it “personally”. I think most people would be unimpressed by someone turning up 45 minutes late to a birthday meal, not even wishing the host a happy birthday and then causing even more delays.

It’s all very well saying “I would have ordered some starters and got on with the evening”, but as I said in an earlier post, we didn’t know how late she was going to be. Plus most restaurants prefer the entire party to order together.

I have a list of friends entitled, selfish, anxious, broom stuck up bum, chatty and resting bitch face. If I had written them off after our first meeting I’d have missed out. First impressions are not always the best. But then I like the quirky ones. I don’t always need to be surrounded by people who have the same outlook as me. All the ones I’ve listed are the ones who also go above and beyond for their friends.

In short I’d give it one last go!

op how old are you both?

did Jane or anyone say or hint that this was typical of Marion

You were just a fellow-guest, it was Jane’s birthday meal, with Jane as host. If Jane wasn’t terribly put out by the late people’s lateness, I don’t see why you should be. And it’s not, after all, your problem if the waiter would prefer not to take orders in a staggered way. If it was a table for eight, and six of you, including the person whose birthday it was were there, it would seem perfectly natural to order your meals and let the latecomers order if/when they arrive, if they were more than 15 minutes late.