NC Parents Secretly Seeing Kids

[AlliBali]

We're NC with my in-laws. Been NC for a year as a result of years of bad behaviours. Not got space to go into details but things like being openly hostile to me and SIL (it's DH and BIL's parents). Having little interest in my DD because she has additional needs, telling me to stop being lazy and taking advantage of DH when I was struggling with post partum depression (MIL openly thinks MH issues are just people being weak) the list is long and lots of stuff we're both just not willing to put up with anymore.

We discovered yesterday that DS15 has been meeting up with his GP's for 7 months against our wishes (he's aware of the NC and some of the general reasons why but no details). In-laws live in 30 mins away and have been texting him, arranging meet ups and telling him to keep it secret. He's been heading out to meet his friends and has instead been meeting GPs. We found out because we bumped into the friend he was meant to be meeting, asked DS when he got home and he told us the truth.

I'm livid, I honestly think this is mostly motivated by a defiance of our wishes, part of the NC was a general disinterest in all the grandkids so this recent interest is totally out of character. One of the traits of my MIL is always having to get the last word and the sense of one upmanship and triumph it brings so I'm convinced this is a part of this.

Really don't know what to do. DS says he feels bad sneaking round but doesn't want to let his GP down. I want to nip this in the bud. I've text MIL and asked her to stop and she's resonded:

"you can't stop me meeting up with who I want to, he's my grandson and I'm entitled to see him, you may think you can dictate to people but I've got news for you.....you can't."

Any ideas how to deal with this? I'm totally at a loss, I'm worried by telling DS to stop it continues to happen in secret.

Presumably your DS has witnessed this multiple times

and yet he still wants to see them?

what on earth are his views?

I think you have to tell them what they said about his sister.

It's not fair to keep this fact from him as it could certainly be a deciding factor for him.

It will shock him but he is old enough to understand that some people do things like this and that he has been manipulated by them to get at you.

I bet that if you stop forbidding DS to have contact, and assure him that you are happy for him to have an independent relationship with his GPs, that they will lose enthusiasm for seeing him.

Illicit meetings are a form of control for them. Once they're not Illicit any more, they're just...routine.

I don’t really think it’s reasonable to expect OP and the rest of the family to go, given what’s happened in the past. But if DS wants to continue contact, I would make a point of dropping him at their home and picking him up each time he wants to see them - and making myself very visible in the process. Sends the message that no matter how unreasonable they’ve been in the past, OP is not trying to influence DS one way or the other. Hopefully that will take some of the fun out of sneaking around for the GP, and if/when DS realises what horrible people they are and stops contact, it will be clear to them that this was his own decision.

I think you should. I wouldn't meet anyone who thought that of my sister - regardless of what age I was.

Your MIL is engaging in one man upmanship rather than familial interest.

They use racist slurs openly, they have an pretty toxic view of people on low incomes. The language they use to describe migrants is not at all acceptable.

And hopefully, if you've brought your DS up to have values and ethics, he will see this @AlliBali

Forbidding him contact with his grandparents could potentially cause him to see them just to defy you, and to agree with their attitudes as a kind of teenage rebellion.

He's old enough to start making moral decisions - but you could say that the reason you don't see your in-laws is because of their racism, and their slurs towards his sister. And that he is free to make a decision, knowing that they hold these racist and ableist attitudes towards his sister.

Give your DS the opportunity to learn and grow.

This reminds me a sitution many years regarding my eldest brother and grandmother - he saw her in secret, but my grandmother was nothing like your in laws. I think your son is old enough to make his decision. I think tell for full facts of situation and let him decide for himself.

I would go with allowing him to see them as it is causing him stress to keep 'the secret' - and it's not great that they involved him in that. However, as a kindness to your son, I'd not add to his discomfort by forbidding him. Let him make his own mind up about them through spending time with them.

"you can't stop me meeting up with who I want to, he's my grandson and I'm entitled to see him, you may think you can dictate to people but I've got news for you.....you can't."

I'd respond (or get DH to)

No you're right we can't stop you you're correct. However you are by no means entitled to see anyone at any time. We had chosen not to share all the details of why we no longer have contact with DS. We didn't want to tarnish any happy memories he had with you. However as you have now gone against our wishes we have no choice but to share the full horror of what you have said regarding Dd. Naturally he is horrified as we were and no longer wishes to have any further contact with you. do not contact any of us again. Any further communication will be seen as harassment.

I think it’s really tricky. Human relationships are complex. My DGM was full on abusive and neglectful of my dad when he was a child. I spent limited and supervised time with her as a child. I have fond memories of her as she had mellowed and become nicer to be around. Or she was just better at being a grandparent than a parent.

as an adult, and knowing what I do about her own upbringing and situation, I also have some understanding of why she might have been like she was. As much as I will always hold how she treated my dad at the forefront of my mind, I also value having had some kind of relationship with her, and I’m glad that my dad managed that relationship as he did, rather than banning me from seeing her, which would have left questions for me and a sense of a missing piece of where I come from.

I think you need to let him make his own mind up, but you can also be honest about why you don’t talk to them.

Oh he is definitely old enough to be told the full facts.

I would also ask him to think about why his GP's have suddenly started to contact him and show an interest AFTER you've gone NC.

Put it to him this could of course, be that they're interested but, if they are now, why weren't they before?

Or, they're using him to get at you, to dig for info about what you're all up to...

I'd frame this as part of a discussion about adult behaviour, adult agendas and how simply being related to someone doesn't necessarily mean they've got your best interests at heart!

Do it properly, adult discussion, ask for his thoughts and properly listen... don't just talk AT him, but also, don't hold back. They've referred to your DD as a 'sp&z'... so do tell him that, don't fanny around there!

presumably he’s witnessed their homophobic, racist, sexist and all round profoundly cruel and unpleasant views many many times in the past

and yet….

If he wants to see them I'd facilitate it.

But I'd give him the full details of why you're all no contact first and let him decide once in possession of all the facts. I'd do this in a factual way, rather than an emotive way too because I think the latter could come across as manipulative.

At 15, you have to respect your son’s wishes if he wants to meet his grandparents. Even if you don’t like them. You shouldn’t be trying to sway him either. He’s an individual in his own right.

I would be concerned that he was being controlled and manipulated. Their behaviour shows that they are willing to put your son in a difficult and awkward situation. If you feel he is old enough to make the decision to see them, I think you have to paint a clear and detailed picture of why you have made the decision to go no contact

I'm sorry to say that all the grown ups have made decisions on ds' part and he is being used as a pawn. Telling him he can't see them for reasons that are not his business is only going to make them seem all that more appealing and make him feel like he is being a grown up and taking control of his life as teenagers are wont to do.

Are frustrating as this is to you, I don't think there is a lot you can do. It's like telling a child they can't be friends with a particular person and it makes them hang around with them more...

I think that’s exactly the reason you should tell him. He’s not giving informed consent otherwise, he has a right to know the full details if you’re asking him to make his decision based on them.

He's old enough to make his own decision, he's also old enough to know the full reason why you're no contact. Sit him down and talk to him about it, then let him decide if it's still what he wants.

Your ds is 15. I don't think you can dictate to him that he can't have a relationship with his grandparents. That would be controlling and unreasonable.

However, I would have an open and honest discussion with him about why you went NC. About the poor treatment of dd, about the racism, all of it. He needs to understand why you made the decisions that you made, and he can then make properly informed decisions of his own.

It will hurt if he decides to carry on seeing them anyway, but I think you risk doing more damage to your relationship with ds in the long term if you try to control him.

Are the GP’s bribing him with treats and money and the suggestion of future gifts/inheritance in order to get him to meet them?

Obviously he’s being manipulated to sneak around as a FU to you and DH. Do you think they actually care about him as their grandson?

A former colleague who held racist views used to get upset when her 2 student grandsons strongly disagreed and argued with her and I think over time it helped change her mind on several issues as she had previously believed what she read in the right wing press without consciously thinking about it.

On the basis of why you went NC, using that awful word about your daughter, I would be spelling out to your son exactly what they did and that you will consider it extremely disloyal to his sister and his parents to go against your wishes whilst he lives in your house.

They are disgusting people and I would be spelling that out to him in great detail.

I agree. He is entitled to meet them if he wishes.

However, op, I am not happy about the secrecy aspect. In view of the broken relationship I can imagine either grandparents or your son thinking, and saying, "Best not to tell mum and dad".

Given how cross you are I understand why they feel that way.

Now there is no need for secrecy!

Let him do as he wants regarding his grandparents, it's hardly going to hurt you. Please try to contain your disapproval, none of this is your son's fault.

The issues you have with them won’t be the same conversations your ds will have with them. If you stop him from seeing them there’s honestly a chance in the future he’ll be calling you controlling and considering going nc with you (not trying to be funny)

I think this isan important point.

You cannot prevent a 15yo having an independent relationship with this GPs. Forbidden fruit tastes all the sweeter. So it may well settle back rapidly to the previous lower frequency.

And don't worry too much about hearing even appalling language from then. Your DH was brought up by them and came out of it all right, Your DS is bound to hear atrocious stuff in school (teens make a lot of mistakes - and it's not just the "wrong crowd" who can go through nastily bad patches) and he needs to learn to deal with that too.

So talking to him - and really listening to what he has to say - are important both for this and for navigating the other rocks of the teenage years. So yes, I would tell him more about what ILs have done, and why several people (you, DH, SIL etc) no longer want to be around them. Remind him that if they make him feel uncomfortable, he should tell you about it. That he doesn't need to keep secrets from you because, whatever happens, you are on his side.

And never interrogate him about what happens when he sees them (never more than a bland "hope you had a nice time, did you do anything special?" sort of general enquiry about his thoughts) Let him decide if he wants to tell you more.

(One thing I would really want to know is how they got back in touch and how he was persuaded in to the first meeting. But I wouldn't ask that directly unless he said something that made it the blazingly obvious follow up)

And talk to DH - these are his direct relatives, and you need his agreement on the line you both take with DS.

He’s old enough to be told the truth and as much as it hurts to say the word he needs to hear the disgusting comment they made about his sister.
If you have proof such as text messages that show their behaviour then also show him that.
Try and tell him in a neutral manner if possible.

My friend and her husband went through something similar with his brother and wife. After alot of truly vile comments and lies and other dreadful stuff they went NC when their daughter was 8.
At first they told her that her uncle had been nasty and once she was a teen told her the full truth as by then she would be going to school or going out without them being there at times. And the brother lived in the area.