Indian & Chinese heritage kids attaining much higher than UK & U. S kids. Can we learn something?

[Keenrower]

Indian & Chinese heritage kids are achieving much better results & seem to have parents who pour all their resources into making this happen. Are their kids just brighter or are parents more aspirational?
Nigerian & Eastern European kids are also very high achieving.
With the new Labour government I think they are very happy to have all kids meeting expectations but these parents will not accept that & I think we have a lot to learn from them.

The pressure and expectation of achieving well academically is a double edged sword. I have experience with the education system in multiple Asian countries and their suicide rates in students are far higher than in the UK.
I think its a parents responsibility to encourage their child to find enjoyment in learning and achieving. But I think the understanding in the UK that not everyone learns in the same way and that grades aren't the be all and end all of a persons career is important too.

Certainly for my extended family, working class in the north and the south of England, the idea of university is seen as a bit of an unnecessary hindrance to getting out to work and earn, which is the priority.

Yes, it depends what people want to do/have as a goal. If you know you want to be a maths teacher, is there any point in doing a PhD working on fractals for four years? Some people would say yes, extra depth of knowledge etc, while others would say they'd prefer to start teaching four years earlier.

Asian families (in general, not all!) want their children to be doctors/lawyers/engineers. Their pathway is set up from the beginning as primary school - good GCSE grades - good A level results - University - profession.

For some other children their envisaged pathway ends earlier, or doesn't need as good grades to get to the next step so there isn't as much focus on achieving each checkpoint. If your plan is to work in local factory like your dad and cousins, would you even think about doing a history degree? You might enjoy the subject, but it doesn't factor into your plan.

@Tardigrade001 a thousand times yes, most still think ‘ability’ is fixed & we know early & this is why setting isn’t usually too fluid. Once bedded in it’s hard for kids at bottom to catch those at top. ‘Pushy’ Mums realise this early & try to get kids moved up or ahead where things are particularly lazy static.

Our primary teachers looked askance when I said ‘ability’ tables ie: lions, zebras, bears etc, were actually (current) attainment tables. Also little Johnny who tries (too) hard can never be a ‘Zebra’ like naturally clever Alyssa whose mother has in reality been doing stealth Kumon with her since the womb etc.

ACT/SAT & USA elites - they pay $$ & start them VERY young. Systems are gamed but people largely assume just higher IQ.

Class - I’d not thought of it like that. Interesting.

Because the average primary school gate parent does not give a toss about the high standard of education at top universities. It’s not even on their radar. But these early years are where the foundations of educational attitudes are established.

Way harder! I used to live in Hong Kong and sheer volume of school work the local kids did was intense, starting from a very young age.

Very anecdotal however my Indian friend gets her dd and ds to work before school and they get a very early school bus to private school and did this from 5 years. She also says she shows her love to her children by pushing them and giving them the best education opportunities. She doesn't tell them she loves them and said she explained to her son this is how she shows love when he asked her why she didn't say "I love you"

Two Chinese friends had one child deliberately so they could spend all their time and money on the child. Eg) reading byn4, piano ballet etc and essentially one that's now in secondary goes to a very exclusive private school. Both laugh and admit they are pushy/ tiger mom's.

I think educational value is much more ingrained into them and hence passing it down. I appreciate it but my parents let me get on with it and i did very well. And i didnt want to do maths at 5.30am with my 5 year old! Unfortunately now it seems getting on with it is not so easy given technology distractions.... lf my ds spent the same effort on perfecting school work as he does on PS5 then he'd be doing v well. He is clever but life and fun is also to be had. ( he has a time limit on ps5 before u all say that's the issue)

Probably not many now due to the massive wealth inequalities in society making it not an option for even lower middle class students. Universities are commercialised and as such are largely at the whim of market forces. Therefore, the dwindling numbers of secondary children going on to have a university education is not a reflection of the values of the average British family, it is a reflection of the government's mismanagement of the economy that has resulted in these huge wealth inequalities!

I graduated in the early 00s and had student friends from families of all levels of wealth, this is not the case now as we are going through the process of uni application for our eldest and as parents are means tested now, you don't get a loan for living expenses that is realistic if your parents are on a combined income of just over £60000. We are on a good income but are going to struggle to find £800 a month extra. It is not possible for a couple of his friends so they aren't going this year despite being bright enough to and despite having parents that value education! In my day I had a student loan but it paid for the rent and I only know one person who worked in term time and that was because she had a difficult home life and wanted to pay rent to stay in student accomodation during the holidays rather than going home.

The British creative industry is largely (with the exception of non-classical music) a closed shop for wealthy white people with enough of a family cushion to not fear failing. It's really not an option for the children of immigrant families, particularly those from cultures where the expectation is that children should support their parents and relatives.

High expectations, high work ethic, respect for teachers and schools, yes we always had that with DDs.I am a lawyer, DH is a civil servant. Obviously we did quite well at school ourselves.

DD1 was very academic and flew through school and is now at university. Doing a creative subject which I am thrilled about.

DD2 was more average, no issues whatsoever until she went to secondary school. Then she became a school refuser and school caused her a great deal of anxiety and depression. She was diagnosed with ADHD and ASD.

Then your expectations have to be adjusted somewhat and you realise that you can't parent children exactly the same and that the very rigid and inflexible one size fits all education system does not suit everyone. And that schools, or really the system really are to blame as there was absolutely nothing we could do to make her fit into it and then were not going to be able to bend enough to suit her.

I agree. Plus in some ethnic groups people who emigrate come disproportionally from middle class, well educated backgrounds.

More than 4 in 10 (43.8%) adult residents born outside the UK (referred to in this article as migrants) reported a higher education qualification in Census 2021, compared with 3 in 10 (31.4%) UK-born residents.

My white DC also go to a local selective grammar school. I pushed them to go there as whilst the comps in the area are also pretty good, I know the ethos is different to a certain extent. Many of the Asian parents are very, shall we say judging by the WhatsApp group, invested in their children! Over protective is another way of putting it IMO.

I have a friend who teaches in one of the local comps and of course there are some high achieving, well behaved kids but there are also real problems which just don't appear to exist in the grammar (or at least they are better hidden!)

Interestingly as someone said above, the extra curriculars are more ethnically balanced. That could be because of money and time but it could be the boys are expected to focus on academics.

Some children travel long distances to this schools (Derby to Sutton Coldfield). I don't like that aspect but it shows the lengths Asian parents (I believe they are all Asian) are prepared to go to or put their child through for a good education (top 50 state school in terms of results).

This is where many Asian families would sacrifice everything they own (including selling their house and living in a 1 bed flat) to privately educate the child that was struggling.

Im not suggesting this is what you should have done but they literally place education above everything else.

There is a common notion on MN that giving a child a deposit for a house is much better value than a private education. The perception in Asian culture is that money can come and go but no one can take the education away from an individual

I think it is a closed shop for many economically disadvantaged people as well but this thread isn't about that it is about valuing education and I think there are different ways to value education, it depends how you are measuring that value, what Education even means!

My mum has not once told me she'loves me. Or I don't remember. Shows it in ways that mean much more to me.
Actions speak louder to some of us.

This is a bad take. I come from one of these families and whilst being encouraged to work hard because education is a privilege, my parents were very fair and accepted the limitations of my siblings and I. Nobody was made to feel bad for not getting top grades all the time, they only wanted us to try our best. My siblings and I had a childhood and plenty of free time but when it was time to study, it was time to study. We were expected to do our homework nd study after school (appropriately according to age) Not saying that there aren’t some families where the children are stressed and put under pressure but such a blanket statement is offensive.
My parents worked very hard to pay for private school, when they could afford it and continued to support my siblings and I financially and otherwise during periods of unemployment and while we have been trying to find our feet… all so that we would be successful in adulthood and to remove stress from our lives during these periods. So what return do my parents want on their investment?

If your children have been mediocre and that’s due to you not giving your all for them, then say that, but don’t accuse other people of doing things in bad faith.

For many people coming from poor countries, good academic outcome is the ONLY way of getting out of poverty.

There is a pretty strict pathway to good life: Good feeder schools -> Good example results -> Top universities -> Well paid jobs. Fail in any of these steps and you’re stuck (which is fine if your families have some money).

There is very little or no social safety net.

Low / no stress is a luxury, because first you have to feed yourself. Basic needs come before mental health, unfortunately.

Usually, only STEM-related careers pay well. Humanities / Arts are for the exceptional few.

Forget extracurricular activities as they require too much money. It’s not like we have playing fields or tennis courts everywhere.

It’s a difficult mentality to get out of for your children, even after you achieve everything for yourself..

It's about aspiration. Not everyone aspires to be the big person in the community, many are happy to just do a job that pays the bills, puts food on the table and clothes on their backs. Tiered education is not a bad thing and the left, who is most opposed to it, should wrap their heads around the importance of having workers as well as leaders.

Exactly! It's not fair to say immigrant parents are more motivated when the stakes are way higher back home & everyone in their circles has their children on the same hamster wheel.

Yes true. I am shocked at myself. My DC has just started school and I am already wondering why other parents don't seem bothered about how important it is!

I am conscious it's not the most important thing in reality but somehow I keep feeling she needs to be the best.

Must be hereditary or something.

Careers in finance are also really well paying. International banking etc..

Surely you can have both they are not mutually exclusive!

What does being 'mediocre' stand for though in your definition of a good 'Education'?

@Itsjustlikethat India and Nigeria are relatively poor countries but Korea, Hong Kong and Singapore certainly aren't, and parents from those immigrant communities are equally, if not more, focussed on academic achievement. And of course there are immigrant communities originating from poor countries such as Pakistan and Somalia who have worse educational outcomes.

In summary, I don't think "people from poor countries value education more as that's all they have" explains it.

This is an intersting point. I have recently been feeling that the biggest help you can give your child us housing, but it's not very mobile. If we become a warzone or climate change floods your town, or just have a huge recession and house values drop. Wheras your education comes along with you if you have to relocate.

DD says all the Hong Kong immigrants in her class want to be surgeons and lawyers. Most of them have no real idea what that involves, and have clearly been told by parents this is what they should be aiming for. Some of them talk about Oxbridge and Ivy League - they are all aiming so high! Even if most won’t make it, the aspiration is set and the pressure from parents is applied.

Meanwhile most of the white British girls say they have no clue what they want to do. Without a goal, what motivates you? You drift, you don’t strive as much perhaps?