Indian & Chinese heritage kids attaining much higher than UK & U. S kids. Can we learn something?

[Keenrower]

Indian & Chinese heritage kids are achieving much better results & seem to have parents who pour all their resources into making this happen. Are their kids just brighter or are parents more aspirational?
Nigerian & Eastern European kids are also very high achieving.
With the new Labour government I think they are very happy to have all kids meeting expectations but these parents will not accept that & I think we have a lot to learn from them.

Completely agree with this. I see so many posts on here like this and it makes me want to scream.

Lots of reasons but I'm mindful that people who have enough about them to move to the UK from abroad are more likely to be predisposed to having children who have potentially more about them too.

Sorry but this isn’t it. Austerity has been biting since the global financial crisis. This is nothing new. We had 14 years of a Tory government and now straight into more of the same. If anything further cuts will drive more people into poverty and mean more children miss school. Not the opposite.

This is just ok isn't true and my point about what is valued as Education both now and historically is broader than scores and grades, an education to my parents included discussion and debate and music and theatre and encouraging creativity!

Parental attitudes to education are the issue - you see it very clearly in Northern Ireland where Catholic maintained schools typically outperform the state and voluntary schools. 13 of the schools in the league table below are Catholic maintained and have Free School Meal entitlement from 5% to almost 70% - the history being that due to discrimination Catholic parents were very keen on education as it was seen to be a way out of poverty (they weren't employed in the manufacturing industries that were the mainstay of the NI economy in the past) which meant that they focused on the professions, jobs needing degrees and qualifying as self-employed trades. The culture was/ is teachers are to be respected and listened to. Today there is a real issue there with underperforming Protestant boys which correlates with the underperforming white, working class boys in England.

I know the table is from 2019 but the article below is from last year and it is more or less the same schools.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/a-level-northern-ireland-school-league-table-2019/37935474.html

https://www.derryjournal.com/education/the-20-top-secondary-schools-northern-ireland-ranked-by-a-level-gcse-results-4699291?page=1

The government can keep throwing money at the education system, but I have no idea how they change the parents’ attitudes to education. There isn’t a shortage of teachers in this country, there is a shortage of teachers that want to stay in classrooms due to the appalling behaviour of children caused by their parents.

How can education not be valued when it is world renowned for quality of education offered in British universities?

Education has always been highly valued in all of the societies you mention.
Never ceases to amaze me how little importance is placed on it by so many parents in the UK.
Probably because it’s free and people take it for granted.

@rubeexcube true but if things get really tough I think we might see something of a cultural shift over time.

The generalisation that if you’re expecting your children to be high achievers, they can’t have any other life is so wrong. I’m black grew up in a culture where was told I need to study and be a high achiever academically so that I can do well in life because let’s be real, I don’t have most of the advantages that others have. I did well in school, had a first in my Bsc and a distinction in my masters degree. I do a decent job now and I remember my childhood, playing with other children, having so much time for myself, just generally happy. You just had to do your work and not get into trouble at school and you’re good.
My dd1 is a balanced child. She does well academically, in sports and gifted in music because even though we pay for her to learn, she picks things up so fast. As a family, she’s not allowed more than a certain amount of screen time during the week because of extra curricular activities, home work and reading but she has lots more free time during the weekend. We encourage our children, expect them to behave well at school, just like our parents expected us to etc. and they all see us working hard so they have us as role models

There’s nothing mysterious about it. Parents of some cultures do expect their children to work hard and do well, and may well be a lot more strict than a good many U.K. parents. I have a Chinese Singaporean SiL who was always very strict with her young dcs as regards homework, music practice, etc. From all I gather, it’s not at all unusual in that culture.

Sad to say, some U.K. parents have little or no respect for education (or their children’s teachers) or are distrustful of any sort of higher education, in case their children become ‘above themselves’.

I can relate to this so much. And it was my white mother who insisted we had to work at least 3 x harder than the average white person to be able to achieve a similar lifestyle, especially as us children are all female. Tbf on her, she has been with my dad since the late 70's and although civic rights movements and laws were in place they did not mean equality. They still don't.

Free education, even at the state level, is something to be valued and grateful for. It there to be taken advantage of. Hard work and dedication equal real life results in most cases, whatever your background. Unfortunately, poc do have to work thay bit harder.

Valuing education and attainment should be imo be modelled to our children just as any other family and moral values are demonstrated. It is equally, if not more important.

Respect and a little bit of fear of authority is also needed. There needs to be emphasis on real life consequences for not going to school, doing your coursework/homework etc.

This doesn't mean you have to be a pushy parent and as always with everything there needs to be a balance so children can thrive and learn in all environments from school to play and even with screen time where appropriate.

Children need boundaries and routines. For example. Mine do not get any screen time or activities until homework and reading are done, after that with clubs and their choice of entertainment until bedtime they are happy, high achieving, polite, funny and endearing. I feel like we have a decent balance. They also have much more of a say in clubs and hobbies than I did as a child.

The town I grew up in everyone went to the comps at 11 for what is now year 7.

The two RC schools were fully comps but for the others after 3 years the top sets went off to the grammar (boys) or high school (girls).

They have changed it now, all the schools are comps and all are mixed sex.

I think there is a lot to be said for grammar at that age, your school knows you are on track for certain grades. The comps had smaller classes after the grammar kids left and they tended to do more practical subjects along side some academic ones.

Of course if you did that now it would screw up the league tables.

Secondary schools are very different to Oxbridge

Is there also a comparison on their mental and physical wellbeing? Their happiness or their earning potential as adults? I saw an article that showed an alarming rate of kids being short sighted with 2 countries who school from age 2 as being the worst and some African countries being the least effected in areas where kids attend school age 7+. I dread to think what other health conditions we impose on children in the name of schooling. Children are not built to be sat behind a desk 6 hours a day

Hard work and discipline, instilled as family values.

Too many native/white British people believe in fixed "natural intelligence" and sorting kids into intelligence categories/ability groups from the earliest age. It is reflected in the school system and the expectations it places on kids. Often, it values a top-middle-bottom division more than actual knowledge. Worded nicely like "allowing children to progress at their own pace", to "reach their academic potential" and similar. Essentially rooted in the class system but modified for the modern age.

Where do you think the university students come from?

A huge number of international students. Plus if you look at the number of pupils in a reception class who go on to university 13/14/15 years later it’s only a small proportion. Having incredible universities is not indicative of a culture who values education, it’s indicative of those individual universities having historic appeal to the highest academic achievers in UK and international schools.

FWIW, I’m a MA student at a Russell Group university. On my course there are three white British students and a large majority of students are international (and this isn’t a STEM subject).

I think education is undervalued in some sections of British society because historically education wouldn't necessarily have been a route out of poverty due to the class system. I think this is very specific to this country. In most other places education is the key, but here (up to the 50s/60s anyway) it is what class you were born into. So I think there is a strong cultural thread of 'it's better to make your own way as early as possible', and suspicion of people who are in authority - again, in some sections of society. Of course this is changing but generations of this has made it quite a stubborn attitude. Certainly for my extended family, working class in the north and the south of England, the idea of university is seen as a bit of an unnecessary hindrance to getting out to work and earn, which is the priority. The few of us who have been to university are viewed a bit like an interesting oddity.

And I think there is too much emphasis placed on fun for kids, as opposed to teaching them to seek happiness and pride from hard work. There's a balance to be struck, but I think many children in the more poorly performing sectors would benefit from being pushed a bit harder, getting more praise and attention for their achievements than their looks or comedic ability, and being taught how to delay gratification.

I say this as a parent who is trying to do these things, not always successfully, having come from a background where my parents did value education but didn't really have the skills or tools to show me what that meant - because they hadn't learned from their families. So while my parents were proud when I did well, they really didn't think to do things like check if I'd done my homework. It just wasn't part of their worldview.

'Discipline' was never really a parental aim for me or my parents, an Education to me and them is encouraging a curiosity and with that an intellectual questioning of things, challenging principles and rhetoric not just accepting stuff. My DS is at 6th form college and is already working at straight As with a year to go (without having to revise at length) as this curiosity has served him well, being passionate about his subjects and reading around his subjects or even watching historically relevant fictional films- he isn't one to just go through the motions and only stick to the reading list! Education isn't supposed to be a formula that you learn and apply to studies IMO, Education shouldn't be reduced to a market utility where schools and uni are an extension of the market state!

My DD plays an instrument but I don't insist on her practicing or at set times, she practices because she loves playing the piano, she enjoys it. My job as a parent is to offer her these creative opportunities but it's her drive or passion for it that takes the interest further!

A HT I knew told me they loved getting Indian children in the school because of their work ethic, good behaviour and manners and great parental support.

I wonder if for those whose heritage is in this country going back at least a few generations, the impact of the 11+ has contributed to certain attitudes. Not passing the 11+ left a lifelong impact on many it seems. Those who succeeded in business or other things in life who failed the 11+ (most now in their sixties or older) are quick to mention this, I find.

How many of the secondary school kids go to a university or even a good one?

How many of them prioritise university for social life over the education?

Very good point.

So according to the Government stats year 21/22 26% of the student population were international students that means 74% were from the UK so still pretty high. How can you argue that having some the best universities in the world is not indicative of a culture that values education? Surely it proves the opposite as historically it has been valued for a long time in order for those universities to stand out globally!