to get pissed off with all those surveys that say working mums screw kids up...because I'm fine ..are you guys? did your mum work? we need to sort this argument out once and for all!

[MicrowaveOnly]

Because that's the real question some of the age old threads could be asking

Should say toxic

A survey or a study?

Status to mothers is very important. But so is having a job you enjoy and feel valued in. Women being forced into shitty low paid work for the sake of it is not the answer to societies problems.

Too many people think they have the right to tell women what they need, apparent 'alpha' females are just as bad as the beta males - maybe cos that's all they are in actuality - but it's a bad habit that needs the stuffing knocked out of it.

Feminism should be doing this, but instead it?s tangled up in it?s own post-modern malaise of the soul, getting it?s knockers in a twist about the most useless things instead of looking at what science and modern psychology can tell us about women and how they live - and want to live ? their lives unprescribed by anyone today, feminism and anti-feminists alike ? they are all off the map.

my mum got some hate mail because she worked in about 1978 it was odd

But I really don't think this is a feminist issue - this is about choice

People go to work for many different reasons
People stay at home for many different reasons

My mum didn't work until Dsis and I were about nine/eleven. Dad worked full time.

Her own mum worked full time from when mum was young and she grew up with bad memories of awful nurseries (1950's) and having to get her own tea. But it wasn't a happy home for lots of reasons.

Well both my sister and I are degree educated, we have had our ups and downs but I don't think mum being SAHM or WOHM was the issue. We had a happy childhood and have our own families now. I am still on mat.leave/career break but definitely plan to go back to work when my time's up.

I am a bit about those statistics. Is it that long work hours are biased towards low income families (who cannot afford luxury of SAHM) which is related to the other outcomes?

It's fine to be a WOHP if that is what's best for you and your family, and you can get the childcare you are happy with - but there's nothing intrinsically wrong with being a SAHM. You do have first refusal on bringing up your own children, surely!

i thought feminism was about choice

And with regards to "getting this argument sorted" once and for all can we be clear that we mean Parents who choose to go back to work not those who have to for financial reasons?

So why when people choose to do certain things in a certain way do other people comment that this is not on?? (and quote feminism, not setting an example to our daughters etc?)

i find that divisive the Compelled to parent Vs the choses to parent?what benefit to differentiating it implies one group more worthy than the other

essentially it is indiviuduals choice based on socioeconomic imperatives

The thing that baffles me about the polarization of this debate is this: are only moderately-wealthy, married women real mothers? Because for women without either a fat household income or a partner, you lose both ways. If you WOHM you're selfish, hard, unfeminine etc etc etc, but if you SAHM you're a benefit scrounger.

My point is that a lot of women come onto debates such as this and say things like " I went back to work at xx months, but I had to as I/we couldn't afford for me not to"
This debate is surely about when people choose to go back to work or not......or am I missing the point?
If you have no choice there can be no judgement surely?

both scenario's you describe essentially involve choice.but you still seem to imply being compelled to for financial reasons is better than choosing to go

people return to work for many reasons
volition
vocation
financial
self esteem
satisfaction
maintain skills
...

This thread has echos of one that was raging on here last night...

I have a dd. I love my dd. I work. I love my job. The two are not mutually exclusive and both me and my dd (and dp) are happy.

My mum was a stay at home mum apart from a few badly-paid, no-account jobs, part-time jobs that she took every now and then to help out with household finances.

I have memories of my mum being happy and memories of her being incredibly depressed. She was at her happiest when she was working- even though that work was badly-paid, shop or factory work. Even as a child, I could see the massive difference having a life outside the home and work colleagues made to her.

Let me rush to say, that I am definately NOT having a pop at SAHMs. The SAHMs that I know work bloody hard and seem to be happy with their choices.

I just know that being a SAHM would be the wrong choice for me and it seemed to be the wrong choice for my mum too.

My memories of her locking herself in her bedroom crying when she was feeling isolated are far worse than my memories of having to get my own dinner occasionally when she was working.

scottish - I think that's exactly what I said at 21.29. People do both for many reasons. I have not implied any bias towards either choice

oh and everyone judges on this issue it is a MN perennial lots of humphing and cross faces and bitty of stereotying on both sides

everyone has choice, we have higher executive functioning, conscience, morals etc = choice

thats what makes life so damn hard. choice

My mum didn't do paid work but worked very hard in loads of voluntary stuff, but was always around for us too. I was very secure and respected her loads for the amount she did - she never stopped.
Some of us don't have the choice to be able to work, so comments about SAHMs being dull are not great. I do my best within my limitations to be creative and fun and get plenty of stimulating conversation and adult company, I just don't happen to be paid for a job. In the end I don't think that working/not working is the main factor in a child's happiness and security. Surely good, loving, balanced parenting is, and that can be achieved whatever the circumstances.

ST you made a differentiation "Parents who choose to go back to work not those who have to for financial reasons"

it is divisive to distinguish, essentially both are working parents eg compulsion (financial) Vs Chosing to do so

"In the end I don't think that working/not working is the main factor in a child's happiness and security. Surely good, loving, balanced parenting is, and that can be achieved whatever the circumstances."

Amen to that MGD

I have to disagree. I think with this debate there is a big difference between those who have to go back to work and those who choose to

In answer to the op
My mum worked - she feels guilty
My MIL did not work - she feels guilty

Go figure?!

why?isnt that similar to deserving Vs undeserving poor argument.who judges?you?what justifies you to differentiate and judge

do you have god complex or something

scottish, may I ask why you are being so aggressive?