Dd screams for hours if she doesn't get her own way

[whatswiththerain]

We are so exhausted with it. We put her to bed and she (dd6) will demand a drink/snack/toy/phone and scream for hours refusing to go to bed until she gets what she wants.
Of course we try not to give in but she won't stop and there gets a point where we can't take any more and give in so when we try and be stronger the next time she just fights for longer.
It's every night and bedtime is just an example, tonight she had spaghetti bolognaise and wanted cheese on top she got that and ate the cheese first and screamed and refused to eat anymore without more cheese.
If we give a consequence she'll scream and scream about it and as much as we know giving in is the problem, it's become so much of a problem that it takes over the whole evening and nighttime until we are so exhausted with her we just have to give in because we have no energy left and need to go to bed.
I know we've done this ourselves but I don't know to change it now it's done.

Do you have more then one child? Because I have one that has always fallen asleep easily, practically put himself to bed with a book from a young age because he knows when he's tired, likes to go to bed and falls asleep easily. My youngest however took me hours to get to bed until nearly five. They're older now and still find it very difficult to get to sleep. Children are not all the same, and there can be loads of reasons for behaviors, some children need more input and support at bedtime, and it doesn't mean you've failed as a parent! They need what they need, and it isn't necessarily anything you've done or haven't done - we tried dozens and dozens of strategies with our youngest and it really made very little difference.

I'm always a bit surprised when people write things like just say no, just make them go to bed, put them on the naughty step, take their things away, make a sticker chart etc. With my explosive child (the good sleeper), taking things away, escalating disagreements just made things so much worse. He just needed help calming down, he was struggling with lots of anger - when he was older he was able to explain he didn't know why he got so upset - we learnt we need to give him a way out of those situations, he needed us to be very calm, not to pile on the shame (which he reacts very strongly to) and punishments. The difference in him was incredible.

Just out of curiosity if you had visitors over for dinner and things weren’t going her way, would she scream and scream?

This sounds very difficult op.

I think a few things to consider are giving her as much controlled choice as possible. Eg do you want to wear this or this today? Giving her lots of opportunities to do things for herself that you can then praise her for. Eg. Small age appropriate tasks around the house, helping with cooking, helping clear up, serving herself things like cheese from a small bowl designed to be shared by everyone at the table. Making sure you set yourself up to reduce the pressure on you when the tantrums inevitably start. Eg leave earlier in the mornings so if she kicks off you're not under pressure to get out the door to help you stay calm. You and your dh need to be a team, on the same page all the time. Tag team it, she kicks off you take turns "supporting her" through it. I personally don't advocate leaving a child to it, but I would let her cry and scream while saying, "I know it's really hard to want something you can't have" or "it can be really disappointing being told no" - would you like a hug? You're not giving in to her, she's not getting what she wants, but you're still there in the moment with her helping her through the tantrum. Remind yourself that it will end and your job is just to support her through it. I'd pick your battles, if it's not a big deal then do say yes. Personally I would do away with the phone - games like that are designed to entice further playing and a child won't be able to self regulate enough to resist that. And I'd make one to one time with each of your children so they are both getting quality time with you. Never compare them.

I disagree with the 'next time' argument.

The OP could have given her DD extra cheese along with praise for asking politely if she asked politely, and the comment that cheese is good for our bones.

She could still say no to sweets or staying up past midnight watching slasher movies. "I can't let you have sweets/ watch that movie," is an appropriate response, along with an acknowledgement that the DD may feel angry or disappointed or frustrated not to hear you say yes.

It would be important with this child to sit down with her when she's calm to talk about feelings, and to emphasise the fact that feeling angry or frustrated or disappointed or wanting something really badly are just feelings, and we can let them pass through us without losing control of ourselves. In the OP's shoes, I'd ask the DD how she feels when mum says no, and tell her whatever the feeling is, it's OK to feel that even if the feeling isnt a happy one. But I'd add that, "I can't let you think that screaming for something will result in getting it."

Sometimes encouraging politeness and giving a little takes the tension and the confrontational element out of the picture. Sometimes a little predictability and a little more flexibility about what's allowed can go a long way too - serve a bowl of cheese / bottle of ketchup, etc, along with dinner, make sure there's a water bottle by DD's bed, etc.
But I would definitely make sure that the phone was "lost" or "broken" and can't be replaced. Children should not have the experience of dissociating from their surroundings with a personal device. It is disastrous for their social skills and emotional development.

This is a child who has lost confidence in her parents' ability to be the family leaders thanks to the vicious circle they're all stuck in. Conversations about emotions need to be started by the parents, and the DD needs to be guided into recognizing and living with uncomfortable feelings no matter how loud or long she screams.

I strongly recommend the book Good Inside by Dr Becky Kennedy.

You need to make up a bed for the older sister elsewhere - camp bed in your room or blankets on the couch for a few weeks until you have reprogrammed younger DD.

If DD is really tired by 7, maybe start bedtime earlier. Does she actually need a shower every night?

Like some pp I agree that Nd should be explored. Hours of screaming is pretty extreme even if it's a learned behaviour and you should just check that nothing is being missed there.

Regardless of the cause unfortunately the solution is the same. Of course she can be allowed completely control in some areas e.g. what she wears at the weekend, but there is so much at 6 that is none negotiable.

I would approach it just like sleep training a baby. It will be rough for a few days or weeks but hopefully improve life for everyone.

Does your elder daughter have somewhere she can go for a long weekend? Friend of grandmas house? So you aren't worrying about the effect on her. Possibly warn the neighbours too!

My youngest is four and has done similar tendancies but dh and I are quiet introverted type so are very impatient with any prolonged screaming or moaning and whining. They get sent out of the room to 'calm down' usually sitting at the bottom of the stairs.

The contrast with her cousin who has been brought up when imo badly applied 'gentle parenting' and has tantrums and smashes things is stark they are very similar personality wise so I'm relieved we have such a low tolerance.

Absolutely this

With bells on.

What utter nonsense. If a child is screaming that they’re not going to eat their food unless you add extra cheese to it, and you’ve already said that’s not going to happen, how will it be resolved? If a child screams that they’re not going to bed without their phone and you’ve already told them they can’t have it, how is that going to be resolved? Who’s in charge? “Not the 6 year old” is the correct answer. Children need boundaries; there seem to be none in this situation.

Have you tried looking at PDA (pathological demand avoidance) strategies?

Honestly, if you can, listen to some Dr Becky podcasts, she covers this sort of thing brilliantly!

You become the robust parent and you approach these sorts of issuers with warmth and boundaries. I think that muddling all of this with punishments/consequences is not helpful. This will just lead to her feeling more out of control and she will not develop the emotional regulation skills to manage wanting something that she is not able to have.

As many people have said you need to hold your boundaries. But you can do this with warmth and love, e.g. you empathise with how awful it feels to her to not to be able to take her phone to bed! This does not mean that you give it to her. Good luck

Agree with @OhMaria2
Games on phones make children very cranky when removed, and when the game stops and the child has to re engage with real life.
Cold turkey is the only way to go. It's a rough and bumpy ride but it has to be done.

Is this recent behaviour or has always been like this

She is 6 I would lose the phone! Everytime she kicks off remove something else tell her up front then follow through

Take privileges and her stuff away every time she screams. She's ruling the roost.

You've created this behaviour. You've taught her that when she screams and kicks off she gets her own way. You've taught her to escalate her behaviour and eventually you'll give in. The only way to deal with this is to not give in for a quite life. If you say no you need to mean it and follow through. Let her scream, shout, whatever but don't give in. I think emotionally literally will help. Talk about feelings. Read books about feelings. Name her feelings.

Eg , Oh, I'm so sorry that your feeling angry. We can't have cheese now. Would you like it for breakfast or lunch. That was she has perceived control.

Id also let her make some decisions. Pick out 2 outfits and let her choose. Let her pick if she wants an apple or orange. Ect

How about screaming "SHUT UP" in her face ?

Repeating ad nauseam until the brat does.

My middle child used to argue about absolutely everything possible and I stumbled across a really good article, it suggested offering choices, ie:
DD: I want more cheese
You: I’d really like you to eat your full meal, would you like more cheese and no dessert or would you like to just finish your meal then you can have a dessert?
The reasoning was that she wants to feel in control so that’s why she’s arguing, so give her 2 suitable options that you’d be happy with either of her options. The meal example isn’t a great one but if she argues over clothes for instance:
DD: I want to wear my green dress
You: unfortunately you can’t today, you can chose from your red or your blue dress though, which would you like?
I didn’t think it’d work as he was very very stubborn, it sounded too easy and simple but it really did help!

In giving in, you're rewarding bad behaviour .... she won't improve while she keeps winning - why should she. You're going to have to be totally consistent, totally, and not give in. Stick with it, you'll see a difference - but you have to stand your ground. Start as you mean to go on! Good luck!

Sadly the only solution is to not give in to the demands. She continues the screaming because she knows it works.
Have you any family support who can help you stick with it?
I recommend your holiday time when you don’t have work the next day.
as gruelling as it it sounds, you can win this one.
Good luck.

I think lots of hugs and lots of soft chats.

"PDA (pathological demand avoidance)"

Is defiance a form of autism now? Thats not me being snarky or anything this is a genuine question because I am confused

Did you miss “and ate the cheese first and screamed and refused to eat anymore without more cheese”? Or “We put her to bed and she (dd6) will demand a drink/snack/toy/phone and scream for hours refusing to go to bed until she gets what she wants”? Or “If we give a consequence she'll scream and scream about it”? OP doesn’t mention DD asking politely, ever, and I assume it’s because DD has learned that screaming gets her what she wants - that’s what she needs to unlearn.

Lol just tell her no.
Push her in her room.
Shut door.
Let her scream for hours.
You are an adult and she is 6y old. She will get tired before you do.
If you don't sort it now imagine the hell when she gets to teen years and becomes stronger, smqrter and more resilient.

Yep you need to break the cycle. Grin and bear the screaming. Been there with my autistic child. Quite a few years ago they had a refusal for a certain non negotiable (being showered, often as a result of soiling themselves). I couldn’t give in and let them change into fresh clothes without a shower, or get changed for bed without a shower. We were battling UTIs and nappy rash and sore areas. The toilet refusal sotistion was the main issue which we were slowly trying to deal with. However when they had refused the toilet they needed showering. Some evenings the screaming went on for 2/3 hours in the early days until we cracked it and they realised we weren’t giving in. They do have sensory issues around showers and still as a teen aren’t keen showering however it’s no longer a several hour battle. We no longer have the reason being cleaning off toilet accidents, however teens get smelly often and do need showers!! I recall one evening when trying to crack the cycle the screaming went on so I had to call on back up from a grandparent (I’m a single parent) to take sibling to the activity both were meant to go to. But when you’re covered in s**t you can’t go without being cleaned. They were expecting me to give in as I’m not one for cancelling activities but this one time we did. Sibling went to activity and screaming child realised they needed to just get on with what had been asked. It took a while for the scream cycle to be totally cracked and several days of them trying but generally the screaming reduced until it was no more.

The main thing is to stay calm and not react. Just wait it out. Don’t engage in discussions during the screaming. Repeat simple phrase - you need the shower, you need to eat your lunch, but not much more. Also warn neighbours if you’re attached!!