Dd screams for hours if she doesn't get her own way

[whatswiththerain]

We are so exhausted with it. We put her to bed and she (dd6) will demand a drink/snack/toy/phone and scream for hours refusing to go to bed until she gets what she wants.
Of course we try not to give in but she won't stop and there gets a point where we can't take any more and give in so when we try and be stronger the next time she just fights for longer.
It's every night and bedtime is just an example, tonight she had spaghetti bolognaise and wanted cheese on top she got that and ate the cheese first and screamed and refused to eat anymore without more cheese.
If we give a consequence she'll scream and scream about it and as much as we know giving in is the problem, it's become so much of a problem that it takes over the whole evening and nighttime until we are so exhausted with her we just have to give in because we have no energy left and need to go to bed.
I know we've done this ourselves but I don't know to change it now it's done.

I agree with the advice here OP. You need to show her that screaming won't work anymore. I'd ditch the phone and ditch the reward chart.

I'd also model good communication. When she's calm gently explain that you've noticed lots of shouting, and we don't shout in this family, do we? So just to let her know from now on you won't ever change your mind because of shouting. Shouting isn't acceptable, she needs to use her big girl words.

Then stick to it. It will be brutal, but then it will be over and you get to live a life where no one screams at you over cheese.

This is really overdramatic. There's no evidence that having a phone is any worse than having a tablet or any other games console. People are mixing up research about social media usage with "having a phone", but this phone doesn't even have a sim card so is just a toy in effect. There's also evidence that phone games can improve children's fine motor skills and hand-eye co-ordination. It's not the having of the phone that's the problem, it's using it at appropriate times.

But in the OP’s case the phone IS casing a problem. Removing it is a simple thing to help.

You KNOW the answer. Don't give in. Realistically, how long can she scream for, before she gets hoarse? A few hours?

My daughter, when she was about 3, screamed at night when we were trying to ween her off the dummy. We gave in for a while, but eventually had to let her scream every night for a week, until she got the message.

My niece used to have terrible tantrums, and her parents always gave in. Funnily enough, she never played up for my Mum, because my Mum wouldn't have a bar of it. She would start to cry, and one look from my Mum stopped her in her tracks!

Time to man up!

This is just weird, 6 year olds aren't dumb at all. Even babies learn that when they cry a parent comes. Strategic might be a better word that manipulative, but either way they learn the consequences of their behaviour. And yes at 16 I learnt about Bowlby in GCSE Psychology 🙄.

Learning that if you do one thing (scream for hours) it gets what you want (cheese/phone etc) is certainly not beyond the capabilities of a 6 year old and to suggest it is is just bizarre. There doesn't 'have' to be some deep seated trauma at the heart of it, the child just wants what they want and knows how to get it. They don't scream for hours at school because it won't get them their way.

OP you need to stop giving in obviously, but you don't need to do it in an angry, losing it yourself way. Just be calm, clear and consistent. Model the behaviour you want. Tell dd you can't hear what she's saying when she screams so if she wants to talk to you then she needs to use her normal voice. Instead of just saying 'no' to her, try explaining to her why she can't have any more cheese - bright kids often do better if they understand why. Make sure you're spending lots of time with her playing games, reading or whatever with her - the more time she spends with you the more she will listen to you and want to please you. Make your expectations clear in advance and warn her of the consequences if she starts misbehaving.

Let her scream, and don't give in - she will learn.

Warn your neighbours though (poor things)

We had tantrums over cheese on dinners! I started giving a small plate filled with grated cheese and said, that's all your cheese! It seemed to resolve that one!

Indeed. In distress because she can't have more cheese 😂

Has she always been like this? I’m curious as to whether the screaming is something she’s always done which has become age-inappropriate or whether it’s something that’s started as a response to something and ramped up.

Are there situations and/or people which seem to act as particular triggers? How does she cope with a “no” in school? Are there any other signs she’s finding life difficult?

I agree this is something she is doing because, to a degree, it works for her, but I’d be interested to look more closely at whether anything else might be going on - something you said upthread about how once she gets the thing she claims to want, the screaming doesn’t necessarily stop and you wondered whether it was indeed The Thing she was screaming about in the first place has piqued my curiosity. It definitely sounds as though she may struggle with emotional regulation.

Poor neighbours!

Could she be PDA autistic?

When my ds(5) does things like this I do a lot of reflecting back for him. "Wow you're really mad you can't have more cheese. Mommy likes cheese too and I would be really mad and sad if I couldn't have more. It's ok to be mad, it's not ok to scream. If you don't stop screaming, you will go in your room by yourself and read a book" In regards to the phone I've found my son responds very positively to screen time when used properly. My son has the same, an old phone with educational games and it's invaluable when used the right way. I don't allow any "fun" games, as they do cause a problem. Ds had a Mario game that I almost immediately removed after I noticed the change in his behavior. Frustration, always asking for the phone, upset when he can't have it. When it's just the educational games that are more low-key he is excellent. Plays on the phone while I breastfeed the baby, he gets a 5 minute warning that I'm taking the phone, after that ok phone time is over lets color. No problems.

I have just picked up on your point about only wanting to eat cheese? Is she in general a fussy eater?
I am suspecting some type of ND. Girls are very good at masking in school!

Of course I wouldn't. But I don't have anyone guarding the cheese and telling me I'm not allowed any more.

I wouldn't take kindly to someone telling me what percentage of cheese I'm allowed on my pasta. It would rile me up. I'm an adult and I can regulate my behaviour, so I don't have tantrums when I feel angry and out of control, but I'd still experience crossness and dismay over it.

For a six year old in the same scenario who knows there's a good chance someone will give them cheese if they have a tantrum about it, yelling feels entirely justified.

If she's passionate about cheese she needs to have more leeway here. It's a fair passion. Like lots of people are saying, give her a bowl of grated cheese to add as she pleases or ask her to eat X amount more pasta before being allowed more cheese.

All things that will avoid the anger behind the eruption because it's not worth it over a little bit of grated cheese.

Then she's being allowed to be her own little person when she desires something reasonable.

Yep she needs firm consequences and big ones.

If she messes you around re. food, give her 5 minutes to eat it. If she doesn’t, it goes straight in the bin (or in the fridge for tomorrow so she learns she’s still got to eat it).

Re the screaming/not going to bed. No birthday party maybe? It’ll save you a fortune anyway. It sounds drastic but she’ll get the message.

I’ve done this myself as has a friend. I’d say it worked.

I get what your saying but having witnessed a four year old child on a 4 hour train journey who had her face stuck on the phone for the whole journey it was shocking. When her mother took it from her you could have heard her screams on the other side of the train. This along with punching and kicking. Another thing I noticed is when she was taken to the toilet she stared straight ahead as if still on the phone and wouldn't reply when spoken to. It was as if she was hypnotised. I said to her mother is she missing the phone and she said its the only time she gets like this but we don't know what to do to get her off it. There are benefits to online games,watching films etc but when children become addicted there are consequences. Obviously the same consequences are attributed to tablets etc too.

So you gave in. Your child is in charge, she knows exactly what to do to get what she wants. Stop giving in, eventually it will get better.
If you don't. It will get worse!

OP- you haven't addressed any of the comments about whether there is possible ND. I think it is very easy for posters to say stop giving in and leave her to scream but I would hazard a guess that in most cases where a child is consistently showing age inappropriate behaviour there is a reason for other other than they have learnt that they can get their own way eventually. Even if you don't suspect ND at the moment you should bare it in mind so that if there are future problems you can revisit the idea.

I think I would want to look into this as something beyond a behavioural issue. If you are decent parents trying to impose boundaries and expectations of behaviour, this seems like something more. I would be wondering whether she was neurodiverse and whether these meltdowns stem from feeling overwhelmed, out of control, dealing (not dealing) with the unexpected. Girls are undiagnosed. Try out some good, firm but kind parenting techniques and then think about talking to school, her teacher or the senco or the GP. Be prepared to be fobbed off.

Lots of posters talking about the cheese episode and how they would be angry if they were refused more cheese. It's not actually about the cheese, is it? It's about a child who doesn't get the word 'no'. Asking 'please may I have more cheese?'. And then accepting the answer is what is expected. Not screaming to get what they want, and the screaming as a reaction to the word no is not acceptable.
As others have said, say no and mean it. No giving in. FWIW my adult child has ASD and ADHD. He learnt that no means no. It's important that your daughter gets that too.

In addition to the great advice you’ve received, can I ask if she gets plenty of exercise? My DS was quite feisty if he didn’t get in a good hour of running around every day - in addition to the playground at lunchtime. Doing a sport or dancing also helps them to learn discipline and good team player skills. I remember my son couldn’t go out for 3 days because of terrible weather. In desperation I put our raincoats and wellies on and took him out. He ran like a superhero for a good mile straight. He just needed to get the pent up energy out of his system.

If every tantruming child was suspected to be neurodivese there would be queues a mile long. This is why it takes so long to be diagnosed. It needs a lengthy period of assessment of both the child and parenting style until a decision can be reached.

Completely agree. My kids are tweens and there is a marked downturn in behaviour if they've had access to Youtube. These days its visiting friends only as we've blocked it completely but it's so obvious a change we immediately pick up on it now.

For a 6 yr old, I'd suggest a digital detox of around a month. No phones, tablets or ideally TV unless it's a family film and this will need commitment from the rest of you too.

Back to school is exhausting at that age so it might also be worth giving a substantial snack post school. Driving or walking. Something like chunky peanut butter on a rice cake or oat cracker. Satisfies the sweetness urge and will hopefully tide you over to dinner at 5.

After that, you just have to ride it out. Sit with a book and ignore. Can you put big sister somewhere else, camp on the floor of your bedroom for a night if necessary.

Of course no means no. But you can't say no to everything or you become authoritarian.

If a child wants something harmless, they should be allowed it, within reason. Then it makes a lot more sense to them when they're denied something.

This child has confusing boundaries at the moment.

I would choose your battles. Why would you argue with her about having more cheese on her dinner if you know she is sensitive and will scream for hours? I would save the battles for something worth fighting for. But I get that you do not want her to scream etc. I would sit her down and explain that this is not allowed and if she does the screaming then she will lose out on something like tv or friends coming. Then you will have to follow through. Explain, you are the parent and have the right to say no sometimes and she needs to accept it.