Dd screams for hours if she doesn't get her own way

[whatswiththerain]

We are so exhausted with it. We put her to bed and she (dd6) will demand a drink/snack/toy/phone and scream for hours refusing to go to bed until she gets what she wants.
Of course we try not to give in but she won't stop and there gets a point where we can't take any more and give in so when we try and be stronger the next time she just fights for longer.
It's every night and bedtime is just an example, tonight she had spaghetti bolognaise and wanted cheese on top she got that and ate the cheese first and screamed and refused to eat anymore without more cheese.
If we give a consequence she'll scream and scream about it and as much as we know giving in is the problem, it's become so much of a problem that it takes over the whole evening and nighttime until we are so exhausted with her we just have to give in because we have no energy left and need to go to bed.
I know we've done this ourselves but I don't know to change it now it's done.

Yes I agree that there's little harm in just having more cheese - but if that's the boundary that's been set, then this would be the most appropriate consequence. There seems to be a difficulty here with setting boundaries and then holding them, so maybe too many boundaries being set, but also, once they have been set they should be held.

Have a look at collaborative problem-solving. Ross Greene's The Explosive Child is supposed to be very good. You can read more here (I google Plan B children to find this) https://elmtreeclinic.ca/handouts/Explosive%20Child/Explosive%20Child%20Handout%20School.pdf

Thank you for the link.
Interestingly, the authoritative parenting style guide states:

Authoritative parents aren’t just trying to enforce compliance. They recognize and encourage a child’s sense of autonomy

Which to me, means let her have the cheese!

In all seriousness, she needs more autonomy. The fighting over every little thing is not due to OP being too permissive it is due to OP being too authoritarian- which the guide calls like drill sergeant - “Do this- or else”

I don’t agree that all boundaries are red lines that must be held at all costs.
I do agree that OP is setting too many boundaries over incredibly minor things that the child should have autonomy over.

@Baffled78 . Have you come into contact with many children in this age group?

Yeah it used to be fine to be hit children. I still get problems with my eardrum now at the age of 40 from being hit around the head so hard it was perforated.

I was very badly behaved as a child because I was angry, upset, and felt that the world was unfair and cruel. My thought process as a child was that I was going to get smacked around no matter what I did so I might as well do what I wanted. I developed terrible anxiety and I was suicidal at the age of eight years old. I was miserable to the point that someone being nice to me could make me burst into tears because I wasn't used to it. And all I would get told by adults when I tried to explain I was being hit at home was that it was fine and I deserved it.

I didn't ever hit my child and he was incredibly well behaved. I took the time to explain why his actions had consequences. He grew up to be a very kind, generous, well behaved, and sweet person.

So you can take your outdated love of violence and jog on.

No of course not, though in this case I think the OP does need to demonstrate that the boundaries set do have some meaning. But I concede here that I could have just started with, cheese wasn't such a big deal!

OP - I wonder whether it would help to write down a list of your firm boundaries, ie firstly around safety, maybe secondly around respect. You have your list and then anything else goes. You might develop it further over time but wait until you've all as a family become comfortable with it and your daughter is more settled

Does her older sister not ever tell her to shut up and stop being a pain? I shared a room with an older sibling growing up who would not have tolerated this behaviour at all?

That sounds lovely. I wouldn't have been in for a power struggle about cheese either. How much cheese would they have really eaten? I'd pause now for everything and think about saying no, think through it, does it really matter, is there an alternative you can suggest? Can you bring some playfulness into it to defuse a situation before it boils? But once it's a hard no, say no, give your reasoning and have no further negotiations about it. Don't threaten to punish the reaction, just hold firm on the boundary with kindness and lots of patience.

I love the suggestions of choices and making requests fun and playful.

These are all strategises that work well with my strong willed child.

Yes my thoughts too as boundaries are for important things, not everything and they do have to be shifted as the child grows up and matures or as circumstances change. So there is a gradual reassessment and shifting of boundaries. Shouldn’t have to be battles and screaming for child & parents to discuss and shift or modify or make an exception to a boundary.

Life is that way- every rule has exceptions. If there is a conflict it is up to the parent to convince the child as to why the no is the right choice in the circumstance. Just like a 6yr old can manipulate, they can also be reasoned with and they can smell bullshit. The “because I said so” reason doesn’t wash with them.

I feel like @Baffled78 has never met a 6 year old. Or any child between the ages of tiny baby and 6. Children absolutely have coherent thoughts. Just because brain development continues until at least aged 26 (and the research didn't say that it was "complete" at 26, they stopped the study at 26 and found that brains were still developing) doesn't mean that everyone under 26 is an incoherent mess and immediately becomes a logical adult on their birthday. The fact that children are not fully able to grasp long term consequences is exactly why it's so important to actually parent them with clear boundaries.

Your daughter is literally screaming out for boundaries and consistency.

She needs you to be parents. When you say no, you mean no, and you stick to it. What I found d with my kids, is they would push the boundaries, and you stretch a little to allow them to grow and become independent. But if you don't keep them within a boundary, in tour case, she's allowed to scream until she gets her way, she will feel out of control.

Kids of 6 want the adult to be the adult.

I'd recommend speaking to her during a calm period and tell her you will no longer respond to her screams. She will be ignored until she calms down and fi ds a way to communicate with you.

Like this 'mum, I want more cheese on my spaghetti bolognese.' 'No' 'but I really like it'. 'OK, you can have what's in the bowl, but once it's gone, that's it. You get to choose how you eat the cheese.'

Then don't give her any more, even if she screams the place down. Eventually she will realise that communication is key, and your boundaries are firm.

What a little madam. Can't blame her, you created this monster. You'd better reel it in quick or you'll have raised a child that no one likes which is utter cruelty in my opinion.

It will take weeks of you not giving in anymore.

That’s probably for the best @Baffled78 because I don’t think you’ve ever met a 6 yr old.

OP I feel for you and I think your daughter needs very firm boundaries. You’ll get there eventually but it sounds like it’ll be a slog

I agreed with you seaside until you used cheese as an example of an appropriate firm boundary. It really isn’t.

Firm boundaries should be things like we don’t ever hit, or don’t cross the road without holding my hand, or never scream swear words at anyone as it is disrespectful.

It is in the case of a child who has been given an inch and is taking a mile.

The OP has lost all boundaries to the point where her child is screaming for hours over anything she wants. The cheese would be gone from my house so fast in response to a child who behaved that way.

The problem with too many boundaries is that means there then are no boundaries.

If there are many things big or small that the child has no autonomy over- it is a “no” and the parent never gives in, or gives in after a lot of screaming, then the child has no idea what is a big thing or a small thing. Everything is a battle, big or small. It is very confusing to them to be shown hypothetically that going without extra cheese is of equal importance to brushing teeth

I don’t think this child is being given an inch. I think it is the opposite problem actually, too many boundaries being invoked capriciously on minor and major things causing massive confusion and understandable distress.

@SummerFeverVenice cheese is an appropriate boundary for the op. And it would be for me. Because A) the child is likely to just eat the cheese and not the rest of the meal, b) the rest of the cheese might be earmarked for another meal, c) consistency us key, do if she's learning this about cheese, ot stops her screaming the place down for more ice cream, chocolate, biscuits.
also, I'm not judging why the op chose it as her boundary, I'm just using it as an example.
Boundaries don't just refer to crossing the road, or no hitting, they are needed in every aspect of life. And before people get upset that im controlling my kids, I mean we all live by rules, and it's your job, as parents, to help them understand. This means setting boundaries, like meal time etiquette, bed time routine, manners and so on. It's often the less obvious boundaries that send kids spiralling in my experience.

@SummerFeverVenice

We must be reading different threads then because a child who demands constant drinks, toys, snacks, the OP's phone (!) at bedtime, sounds to me like a child who has a serious lack of boundaries.

Everyone focusing on the cheese is ignoring the fact that it's just another thing in a long list of demands from OP's daughter.

The OP has given in far too many times and shown her daughter that screaming gets what she wants. She has a lot of work ahead to undo this. Reminds me of a friend of mine who wonders why her 4 year old wakes at 4am every morning and has done from the age of too. Coincidentally when she wakes up they give her an iPad so they can go back to bed. "It's just easier for everyone" she says. Well the OP is an example of what's easy to begin with eventually creates a whole world of problems.

Being a good parent means taking the difficult route for the sake of raising likeable human beings for the rest of society. The OP should have nipped the bedtime bullshit and all the other demands in the bud long ago. You don't have to be a tyrant to achieve that.

Intermittent reinforcement. You need to get on top of it asap.

Wow. I can’t find anything I agree with in your post.
The idea that refusing cheese teaches lessons about ice cream/chocolate is patently ridiculous. It confuses healthy food with sweets, and can contribute to disordered eating habits. It’s just exercising power and settimg up a battle of wills for the hell of it, because you can.

It matters what we choose as boundaries, and yes picking minor things is something to be critical of because it is counter productive to raising a healthy, well behaved child.

I did mention in my initial post, that I also see nothing wrong with a child wanting a drink, a snack, a toy or a phone to play a game on for a few minutes before lights out. The list seems to me like the child is always told no to everything and anything on auto-pilot. And then it becomes a battle of screaming just to get a glass of water before bed or to have a toy in bed with her etc,

And why is the child unreasonable for asking for any of these perfectly reasonable things?

They aren’t imho. I don’t understand why the OP has said no to any of it. I haven’t ignored it, I have been repeating the cheese because I think it is the most petty and ridiculous of the examples.

I also don’t see any issue with giving a child a quiet way to play if they are an early riser? We all have different biological clocks. What is wrong with some parts of parenting being less difficult? And how could a child playing quietly at 4am possibly create a whole world of problems? (Seems a bit paranoid).

You do sound very tyrannical in the way you write. Calling simple, reasonable requests bullshit and framing them as demands.

1. Don't get into a power struggle about cheese.
2. Don't tolerate the screaming.
3. Assuming that there is more cheese available, tell her that she can have more cheese if she asks nicely. If she's screaming and being abusive, then there is no more cheese. That makes it about her behaviour.
4. If she asks nicely, and there is cheese available, give it to her.
5. If she screams and screams, then don't give it to her.
6. Rinse and repeat.
7. Reinforce good behaviour, don't reward bad behaviour.
8. Don't hold arbitrary boundaries.
9. Make your expectations of her behaviour clear. Be firm but kind.
10. Don't impose unrelated consequences (what does wanting more cheese have to do with having friends over on the weekend?). That sort of thing feels punitive, without clearly communicating what the problem behaviour the child needs to correct is.

If there is another issue (e.g. she only wants to eat cheese, and you want her to eat some more of her dinner, then explain what the problem is and what she needs to do to get more cheese - "Try your bolognese without the cheese first and see if you like it. If you don't, I'll give you more cheese, but you have to try eating it with the bolognese.") I think it's up to each individual family where they would draw the line, in terms of food, but I personally would not have a problem with a child who did not like bolognese, but did like cheese, asking for more cheese to get them through the meal. In fact, I actively encourage my kids to think of what they can add to their meals to make their food tasty to them, so that we all eat the same food. Some people just like lots of cheese on their pasta.

The problem here isn't the cheese, it's the behaviour. You have to focus on what the actual problem is.

Sympathies to you OP, I’ve been there myself many years ago and it’s a hard journey to navigate. These days I’d be saying to her once very firmly that only toddlers and babies scream and if she wants to scream then she can be treated like a baby. That means no friends over, no phone, no screen time, early bed time - you get the jist and just let her scream it out and ignore her. She will only be able to scream for so long before her throat hurts and she will soon learn the hard way. If she starts screaming don’t give her any eye contact or any attention until she wants to be calm. Don’t tell her to stop, don’t acknowledge she’s screaming at all and just go into a different room and keep doing so until she realises it won’t get her anywhere.

Screaming is massively annoying but it won’t kill her. When my son was younger he would throw awful tantrums and break things as a punishment for me not giving him what he wanted. Eventually after countless things were broken including my spirit I toughened up and things that were broken went in the bin and were not replaced. His “fun stuff” was confiscated and proper consequences were put in place for his actions as a deterrent and as hard as it was at the time I stuck to it and it eventually paid off. He’s now a well mannered, respectful young man and it feels like I’m talking about someone else’s child now because he’s such a different person.

Your daughter has realised that screaming sooner or later gets her what she wants. If it didn’t then she wouldn’t do it because she doesn’t do it at school and stops when she gets what she wants so it’s not a meltdown and she is very much in control of her actions. Shamelessly when I was her age and a bit older I’d worked out if I wanted a toy from the shop for example then if I played my mum up and kept on relentlessly she would eventually give in. She didn’t have a disciplinary bone in her body god bless her. My dad on the other hand was a completely different story. I daren’t have played him up in a month of Sundays because I knew there would be big trouble if I did and he wouldn’t have taken a single second of my nonsense.

Children can be wonderful and kind and on the other hand if they know it’s advantageous to them they can be manipulative just as adults can be. Children need firm boundaries and routines because when they know where the line is it makes them feel secure. Good luck OP.