WFH - What is reasonable?

[Nutellla]

Looking for views on whether I have unreasonable expectations about WFH. I have worked from home for over 8 years in two different jobs and never had an issue until now. In previous roles I have been trusted to do my job and manage my time accordingly. This has often meant that I work late in the evening when required etc. but during the day, I was able to manage my time (within reason). For example, I always logged on in time in the morning but would occasionally work in a cafe to get out of the house or pop out to do the school run for 15 mins or go to the corner shop if I wanted some chocolate :-) Nobody was ever bothered, as long as my objectives were being met.

I started a new job 6 months ago, I'm senior project manager level with no direct reports. I need to travel 40% of my time, which involves flexibility on my part with early mornings and over night stays etc - I have no issue in this. I also need to work late occasionally.

When I am not travelling I WFH but my line manager and his manager have Teams alerts set up against everyone in the company and if the status changes from 'active' to amber (indicating that your mouse hasn't moved) you get a phone call with some lame question but essentially it's a checking up call. I thought at first I was being paranoid but over the last 6 months the following has happened:

1. I was away from my desk for 20 mins as was dealing with a plumber who had come to fix our shower - phone call from boss
2. Away from my desk for 15 mins having a chat with my neighbour who had brought over a package - phone call from boss
3. Went off line for 25 mins as was working in a cafe and forgot my charger so had to go home - phone call from boss with impromptu 1:1
4. Popped to the corner shop today for 15 mins as I wanted some chocolate - phonecall from boss.
5. Boss has said in conversation, he needs to know where I am at all times.

Are my expectations unreasonable or did I just have it too good in my previous job? If you are WFH is it okay to step away from your desk. Its not like I am customer service or answering phone calls all day. I often don't speak to people (unless it's my boss checking up on me - haha!) There are other issues too and am looking for another job but interested on views if it is the same elsewhere?

Open notepad pop something on your keyboard which initiates typing , job done

You must surely know that not all companies have the same working practices.

OP I’ve also WFH for 8 years and think your new boss is being very unreasonable!

I work exactly as you described. I take flexibility during the day when needed and work at night to catchup.

I couldn’t work for a company like yours.

I think you should have a frank conversation with your manager to align expectations from both sides. You need to know where they stand and then decide if this role is right for you.

Reading your list of excuses it's amazing you actually still have a job. Unbelievable tbh.

Of course. And i can say the same to you. A lot of companies will not let you go out of the building, if not on a break

If you're working in a job where you're out and about dining guests, the company would be of course fine with you going out and about.

But if you're in a desk based office job, a lot of jobs will not let you leave the premises, except for breaks.

OP said she popped out to the shop for chocolate.

She probably should ask if that's acceptable, before she does it

What kind of job doesn’t let you leave the premises?! That sounds bizarre!

I work in a similar role (PMO) and we have a hybrid work model - 2 days in the office, 3 WFH

In both environments our hours are totally flexible and we are trusted to get the job done. Officially hours are 8.30 - 5 but people work round school runs, can pop out if they need to, go to the gym at lunchtime etc. We are allowed to choose the days we work from home as long as we are there for any important meetings. We all work hard and are flexible ourselves and this level of flexibility brings loyalty and hard work from your employees.

Expecting you to be at your desk 9-5pm with no movement is so old fashioned! Especially when your job is not client facing or impacting anyone else’s work and you work and travel out of hours. Smacks of poor management to me.

What's your point? You told us you are not allowed to pop out for 25 mins. Some people are, some people aren't.

You need to look for employers offering flexible working as well as wfh. They are separate. Some will offer both, some neither, others 1 or the other.

It might be called flexitime, flexible working etc.

I think its more common in public sector & charity roles, than corporate, and often goes hand in hand with slightly less competitive pay (imho) - where people accept it because the flexibility is valuable to them. The thing of having young kids at home after school seems to be openly allowed in the public sector, but tends to be explicitly prohibited in corporates.

I said "except for breaks".

What, loads do.

I mean if you're taking it literally , of course you can actually physically walk out while you're om shift. But you would be disciplined for it.

A nurse can't just walk off to the shops for 30 minutes for chocolate, when she is meant to be looking after sick children, can she?

She would be disciplined for it

And to be clear it sounds like your issue is you thought your current employer offered flexibility but they clearly don't.

I’ve found the opposite - I work in a corporate field and the more senior I get, the more flexibility I’m offered - along with higher pay

OP, I have a similar job to you, and have been fully virtual for 4 years and can flex my days similar to you, and make up for it by either working late or having a short lunch etc. When we worked in the office, we'd often do a 45 min lunch, and mid morning do a coffee run outside, or similar.

Your boss is being a knob! Surely you can go for a toilet break / lunch etc without having to sit at your desk? What's your co policy on lunch - are you expected to work through it?
To get round the status issue on Teams, I do two things:

1. I block time with myself in a meeting for my lunch; shows up as a red on teams
2. set your status and duration to busy or DnD; if you right click on that, there's a duration button that allows you to set how long you want to be busy / away etc for (it's not enabled on all versions of Teams)

I also work from home and get more done at home - doing the little bits you said also, putting the washing on/hanging it out, nipping to the shops for some milk - than I do in the office. Coffee breaks, actually taking a lunch hour because it's social, talking to someone you pass on the way to the printer...and if I smoked I'm sure it would be even worse.
Seems a bit strange they check up on you after 10mins but require you to work away/early nights etc. toxic workplace, I couldn't cope with it.
I'm surprised the amount of people that think it's taking the piss, as I'm assuming you're not talking to the neighbour, working for a cafe and getting chocolate all on the same day, every day, more like one 15min every so often - I must have been really lucky in my previous companies.

I wfh quite a bit and what you do sounds normal to me. I have no set hours and do not usually have to respond to anything quickly. I work 7 hours between 8am-6pm, whatever works for me and no need to put anything on my calendar. However, if i had meetings or similar, I would be expected to attend at this time, and this hasn't been a problem.

I also do things like: (albeit not that often, maybe twice a month)

-Take a long lunch break (1.5 hours) to attend a meeting at DC's school or have lunch with a friend.

-Go for a 30 min walk

-Work from a coffee shop for a couple of hours (15 mins walk away).

-Take the kids to the park after school for an hour or so

I would do the same in the office. It is not tracked and we are trusted to get the work done. I have been in the industry for 25 years and I trust myself to manage my time to get the job done well within my hours.

I know not everywhere is like this and I do really appreciate it.

Cool 👌 bet you stand there chatting to other colleagues though.

This is toxic culture for sure. I work from home and am free to manage appointments, take time when needed and am measured on output not presenteeism. Saying that though, there is a clear expectation that you are present for normal working hours as standard, that you’re not looking after a kid as well as working (emergencies accepted) and that generally you are working hard. Some people respect this, some take the piss but ultimately those people can be managed as the piss taking is obvious. Managing everyone as though they are a piss taker is not the way to run a business! This kind of monitoring reminds me of my student call centre job where you had to put a toilet code into the phone system when popping to the loo and would get called up if you’d been gone too long.

focusing on productivity is much more important than focusing on the minutes that you’re away from your desk.

Why ? If the work is being done ? Who cares where the location is ? Would you be saying the same to a person sitting in the canteen of a factory ?
Op - i couldn't work like this - if you were in the office physically there will be times like you have explained that your TEAMS will go amber. Talking to a colleague for a while in the corridor (and not about work ) Walking to the toilet or canteen - where my office is its an age to walk, being in a meeting etc. Its micro managing . Who has the time to monitor the TEAMS colour? I would be looking for a new job

This. You have earned the right to flexibility, that's important for your role, and it needs to work both ways.

To all the PPs naysaying: a job is just a job, and if we all expected more and demanded better treatment as employees then we would all be in a much better place. It's not a race to the bottom.

This! I shudder to think of what it’s like working in a call centre/amazon factory where you are monitored so closely, even how long you take in the toilet!! - it’s not right and only benefits the employers - these places are like modern day workhouses

So are you solidly working from the moment you log in to the moment you log off when you're in the office? You don't make a hot drink from time to time? Speak to your colleagues? Go to the toilet? Catch up with your manager? Pop out for some air? Stretch your legs etc etc? You do realise that all of those activities eat into the working day but are vital for good morale and a positive working atmosphere?

All of the above cannot be readily replicated when WFH, especially because people pack in online meetings constantly so you do spend an inordinate amount of time sitting and staring at screens without seeing other 3D human beings. Therefore, it is necessary for good mental health to take breaks away from the desk, and if those breaks involve a burst of fresh air and a chat with another human being then all the better.

In the same way that a person working in a factory works in a completely different way to a person working on a shop, so does a person WFH versus one working in an office. They are completely different environments with different needs.

I WFH and my arse never leaves my seat except for my lunch hour.

I wouldn't be impressed with staff wandering off all the time unless pre-agreed and I would review if they should start coming in to work if they start taking the piss.

Automatic mouse wigglers are definitely great though, it helped us finally sack an employee who was an extreme CF, unknown to them our IT staff could monitor who was using one and we managed to get rid after going down the gross misconduct route.

I personally think this is pathetic on the part of your boss - is this company policy or are they just micro managing? If you complete your outcomes I can't see what the issue is.

You only going to the toilet on your lunch break? Don’t make a tea or coffee? Sounds…healthy!

WFH for mamy years, I do more work that way. I would suggest that you take care if you are constantly using screens, just once every 2 hours got and get a cuppa tea from the kitchen. Just a 4 minute break is enough. Also will help with heart. You should be being actively encouraged to do that by HR.
I know it's difficult to get into that habit but I would really suggest trying it. Work isn't important enough to damage your eye health let alone your heart health.
Should add that not all mouse jigglers are seen as mouse jigglers so although your IT team may have found it, it doesn't mean they will find all. Also if it's a Bring your own device setup (rather than a company supplied laptop), then they acted illegally if they didn't pre inform the employee. I'm sure your company did, but I'm just putting it out there.