WFH - What is reasonable?

[Nutellla]

Looking for views on whether I have unreasonable expectations about WFH. I have worked from home for over 8 years in two different jobs and never had an issue until now. In previous roles I have been trusted to do my job and manage my time accordingly. This has often meant that I work late in the evening when required etc. but during the day, I was able to manage my time (within reason). For example, I always logged on in time in the morning but would occasionally work in a cafe to get out of the house or pop out to do the school run for 15 mins or go to the corner shop if I wanted some chocolate :-) Nobody was ever bothered, as long as my objectives were being met.

I started a new job 6 months ago, I'm senior project manager level with no direct reports. I need to travel 40% of my time, which involves flexibility on my part with early mornings and over night stays etc - I have no issue in this. I also need to work late occasionally.

When I am not travelling I WFH but my line manager and his manager have Teams alerts set up against everyone in the company and if the status changes from 'active' to amber (indicating that your mouse hasn't moved) you get a phone call with some lame question but essentially it's a checking up call. I thought at first I was being paranoid but over the last 6 months the following has happened:

1. I was away from my desk for 20 mins as was dealing with a plumber who had come to fix our shower - phone call from boss
2. Away from my desk for 15 mins having a chat with my neighbour who had brought over a package - phone call from boss
3. Went off line for 25 mins as was working in a cafe and forgot my charger so had to go home - phone call from boss with impromptu 1:1
4. Popped to the corner shop today for 15 mins as I wanted some chocolate - phonecall from boss.
5. Boss has said in conversation, he needs to know where I am at all times.

Are my expectations unreasonable or did I just have it too good in my previous job? If you are WFH is it okay to step away from your desk. Its not like I am customer service or answering phone calls all day. I often don't speak to people (unless it's my boss checking up on me - haha!) There are other issues too and am looking for another job but interested on views if it is the same elsewhere?

If your 25 mins chats are - in effect - your lunchbreak then this is fine. If it is on top of, then less good.

I bet people in the office spend longer than 25 minutes a day chatting to each other, making cups of tea and standing about waiting for things to print etc.

I worked retail for years and even then I spent longer than that each day making coffee or chatting 🤷‍♀️

This thread has been eye opening to a lot of views that I thought had been left behind. I appreciate that some jobs are time boxed within that traditional 9-5 model and are not flexible, but some are

Some are yes, and where an organisation is clear that wfh goes hand in hand with flexibility, thats fine.

But

You cannot assume working from home means flexi working by default. It doesn't.

There is a difference between chatting to colleagues in the office (team building/bonding) and chatting to non work friends during work hours. I would be fine if my team were chatting to each other or other colleagues, clients etc during work hours (within reason) but not fine if they were regularly having 15 minute long phone calls to catch up with friends or family. OP chatting to her neighbour falls into the latter category.

You cannot assume working from home means flexi working by default. It doesn't.

People are not saying that. In fact my own posts have acknowledged that there are some operational type jobs where the traditional 9-5 model is still required, regardless of whether the person is sitting at a desk in the office at home

However the discussion has been about whether OPs boss should be stalking her online status (they shouldn’t) or whether pay should be docked because people who have the luxury of being flexible pop out during the day which of course it shouldn’t.

And yes I did say luxury as it is that but it doesn’t feel so luxurious when it’s a 15+ hour day involving travelling which it very often is for me and those in similar roles

I think boss sounds controlling, but at the same time, I WFH 10-6 daily and im in my office at my desk and computer for the duration of those hours.
I take a short lunch break, and make a cup of tea mid afternoon.

All of this popping out, or having a chat with the neighbour, going to a cafe etc isnt something i would do as although my boss isnt controlling, i control myself.

The point of a taking a break is to....take a break. To rest your mind for a short while, to stretch your legs or get some fresh air.
Worrying about having to arse around on your phone to make your manager think you're working seems more stressful that actually just working. Either you're allowed to take breaks or your not.

And all these clever, clever people beating the Teams system...managers are going to cop on. Result will be they insist you have your camera on at all times. Or go back to the office (where the slackers and piss takers will continue to slack and piss take as has always been the case).

I'm so glad I work for a normal company.

[off to get a pint of milk now]

But workers have a right to one 20 min break and a lunchtime break during the working day, so why would 15/20 mins be a problem just because you are at home and use that time for a domestic task.

OP your manager sounds like a tedious micro-manager, can you call him/her out and ask why they are doing this?

Aside from the time issues, I find doing non-work things during the working day makes it much harder to keep on top of work/life balance; the lines get blurred.

I do have enormous flexibility and there are times I take advantage of that, but I much prefer to work regular hours - go to my garden office, work (with breaks for tea, loo, getting a pint of milk), stop work, get on with the rest of my day.

Unless your organisation has locked form those settings

I am a long term wfh'er (since 2008) in a professional role across 4 different companies in that time. My job requires flexibility of me including being able to accomodate client calls between 7am and 8pm when pre-arranged and to travel for business. I get no time off in lieu or additional pay when I travel so I might fly out Sunday night for a Monday morning meeting and fly back later on Monday getting home by around midnight. I then go to work as normal Tuesday.

The payback to this is that my boss leaves me alone as long as work gets done and objectives get met. I have lots of meetings most days and things I need to get finished that are very visible to others so it's clear I am working but I also dropped my daughter to school late today (11am, 40 minute round trip) without having to clear it with work - as an example.

I'd suggest a come to Jesus with your boss but it certainly appears as if they expect all the flexibility to come from you. If that is the case you should be getting overtime pay or toil to compensate any late work or business travel. In your situation I'd be looking for a new job.

I think any manager who relies on their employee’s status on teams to show whether they are working or not, is quite a poor manager? I often print off lengthy documents and go through them away from the laptop or make notes etc away from the laptop - I’m still working, just not on my laptop

Thanks for all the feedback. In answer to some of the questions and points raised:

• I think the company and certainly my boss have set up teams alerts against all employees so I am not being singled out. The alert has been in place since I started so it is standard procedure for the company.

• I don't want to use a mouse mover or any technology that shows me to be working when I am away from my desk. I think I would be in the wrong if I did that and if they did find out, then would lead to questions about my integrity.

• I work hard and always have done. There has never been a question about my work ethic in the 25 years that I have been in this industry. My previous roles have allowed a lot of flexibility and I would offer the same to any of my direct reports (if I had any).

• As for looking after kids / school pick up, my daughter is 15 so does not require childcare. She normally gets the bus home but there was one day when I had to collect her, I think I was out of the house for 10-15 mins before I got a 'checking in' call from my boss.

As I said I am looking for a job but in the sector I am in, the application process is like a full time job in itself.

The reason posted the question was to understand if there are other jobs out there which have a similar in WFH to my previous jobs. It sounds like there are.

Does any have any insight on how I go about asking about WFH culture in an interview? Or how I explain why I am leaving my role after 6 months? My employment history shows that I have stayed in previous jobs between 4 and 13 years, so I don't frequently move positions and I think it will raise questions.

What office do you work in. In my office , we are not allowed to "pop put for a coffee'

I work in an office. I wouldn't be allowed to pop off for 25 minutes to do little things for myself.

I'm not sure why work from home people , think that they can do that.

Is it any different to popping to the vending machine when in the office though? Nobody takes that as a break. Similarly chatting to a colleague or somebody in the kitchen isn't frowned upon or taken as a break. FWIW I rarely WFH due to the nature of my job but surely the examples noted by OP have an office scenario equivalent.

No vending machine in my office!

I'd say you had it good in a previous job and this time haven't got as good a company.

I work for a company where it a bit like no flexibility at all but they expect flexibility from me to work late or at weekends to meet deadlines. My DH works for the complete opposite company where as long as you do your job and are available mostly over core hours they don't really care what you do. It's made me consider moving job to be honest as the constant worry about telling my boss every little detail gets annoying. It feels a bit like you are being watched all the time.

Some of the things you have listed I would consider unreasonable but 15 mins here and there for answering the door, or popping to a corner shop, or doing a pick up, I'd think was ok.

Personally if they aren't willing to give flexibility for 15 mins here and there then I wouldn't give it back either working evenings and weekends to catch up on things etc

As for your last point, if I see a CV where someone usually works at a place for a long time, then is looking for a new role within 6 months of joining somewhere new, I judge the employer, not the candidate!

People stay a long time in my company. Three people left within the last couple of years, who had worked here for 12 years, 7 years and 5 years respectively. All of them left their new roles within the first 12 months of joining because they were a nightmare.

What office do you work in. In my office , we are not allowed to "pop put for a coffee'

So you never leave your desk to make a cup of tea? Never spend any working time chatting to colleagues or using your phone?

But you choosing not to take breaks is just that - your choice. It doesn't make you a better or more efficient worker than someone who does take five minutes to answer the door or hang the washing out.

In fact, I'd even argue that working for hours on end without even getting up to stretch, move around or use the toilet is pretty unhealthy, especially when you're doing it day in, day out.

I think it depends so much on the role and company ethos. I have never minded people popping out for coffee or even brunch/a long lunch or whatever. But overall these are people who work long hours and into the weekend when needed so I would be very petty to police their lives minute by minute

Theres a difference between making a coffee in a break room and leaving the premises which "pop out" implies.

I’d absolutely argue this as well - my job involves reading and amending very lengthy and technical contracts and there’s no way someone could do that for 8 hours straight - you would be making mistakes by the end, 100%

Yes I can stay in our office building to make coffee.

I was replying to the OPs point where she said she went out to the shop for fifteen minutes, to get chocolate. And a later poster who said it's fine to pop out for coffee

I definitely wouldn't be allowed to leave my office to go to a shop to get coffee or chocolate.

I actually used to do a full time work from home job. Before my current office job.

I never went out to the shop when I was in my work from home Job either. You have to be at the desk

@Nutellla ,

‘Does any have any insight on how I go about asking about WFH culture in an interview? Or how I explain why I am leaving my role after 6 months? My employment history shows that I have stayed in previous jobs between 4 and 13 years, so I don't frequently move positions and I think it will raise questions.’

Honesty is always the best policy.

You say you don’t feel that you are being treated like an adult professional and you don’t like being micromanaged.

You tell them the flexibility you require and what they will get in return (which, from what you say, is lots).

They can then decide whether to employ you or not. Personally, I think someone who can manage their own time and prioritise is a great employee.

Then, if they do offer you employment, check the contract carefully and make sure it is at least skewed to what you want .