Did women used to enjoy being catcalled?

[Gofastboatsmojito]

Hi,

Filtering a recent discussion with my stepmum I just wanted to survey the 55+ year olds of mumsnet to check whether I'm way off.

She is absolutely insistent that in her youth women (most? all?) enjoyed being whistled or shouted appreciatively at when waking past a building site.

She thinks women's perception of this has changed in the last 20 years. All her friends enjoyed it in the 70s and 80s apparently.

For context she has been the subject of male violence including sexual violence and does not equate the two.

I find it hard to believe everyone enjoyed it and assume that women felt a lot less able to say they didn't like it due to fear of being called frigid, uptight etc.

I'm sure the answer might lie somewhere between the two extremes but just wondering what an AIBU poll might say.

V grateful if women of age 55+ only vote

YABU = in my youth the majority of women I knew considered a wolf whistle as a cheeky but welcome compliment

YANBU = I didn't enjoy this even in the 70s

Am now mid sixties and absolutely hated it. I would actually try to avoid it if at all possible, eg avoid roads where there were building sites. I found it really intimidating, I just wanted to go about my business in peace.

Did not like it. I also would do detours to avoid building sites etc., I'd forgotten how stressful it was always being 'under the eye'. Hassle started from about age 15. And the reality of the intention was soon revealed - if you didn't respond appropriately or wave, you very quickly got called an ugly cow! So much for 'just a compliment, love'! It was definitely still happening in the 1990s. It might still be happening, but I've got my special invisibility cloak now.

We might not have used that argument at the time, but that is what it was. Mostly, we didn't get much chance to use any argument before being told we were frigid or oversensitive. I am not one of those people who doesn't like any interaction. 'Good morning' is very different to a random stranger passing a value judgement on my appearance.
Maybe it's different for me as I didn't get the supposed 'compliment' of wolf whistles. I got the barking. Even got, 'should've been born a man' once. And the fact is, an acceptance of wolf whistling/cat calling basically gave that 'right' to pass judgement. Responding negatively would get, 'calm down, love, jeez, just a joke' or, 'sorry the truth hurts'.
We weren't supposed to object. It was a right other people had, and yes, it was a damn imposition of unwelcome attention.

I am someone who experienced it in the 70s and 80s, as I've told you. I will explain for the last time that street harassment is not a social interaction.

I've given you examples of cat calling I've been subjected to recently which is gross and offensive and is not conducive to social interaction because it's said for the purpose of humiliation and degredation.

There is a difference between striking up a conversation with a stranger in a queue and someone making crude comments on your body.

As far as I'm concerned, having lived through those decades, it's always been unacceptable. My way of interacting with others hasn't changed and I still find street harassment reprehensible. There is no excuse for intimidating women who are simply going about their business.

@poppyzbrite4 Exactly, it's totally different. I'm so glad I didn't live through those times. My mum says men used to grope her on public transport etc and it was just seen as what happened. She told me she'd been raped several times but it was just seen as what happened to every girl. Younger men are in general more well behaved on the streets as they are taught it's wrong and society deems it wrong now, it's the older men 50+ who still think it's okay to be sleazy

I don't think it's a matter of men seeing it as wrong but society has moved on because of the women's movement. It was very common for women's bodies to be seen as fair game and public property. Women were often groped and pinched at work.

We now have laws in place to prevent sexual harassment and discrimination which obviously aren't always followed but things are better.Companies can be sued if workmen harass customers or pedestrians, so women are better protected under the law. Before it was a free for all.

One of the most noticeable changes has been the protection of children from predators. School girls were often sexually harassed in their uniforms and having a much younger girlfriend was seen as a status symbol.

I had friends with boyfriends who were sometimes double their age when they were teenagers and I remember 16 year old page three girls in national newspapers. There was also the sleazy uncle trope, it was common to be sexually harassed by family friends or members.

Women and girls were seen as playthings and street harassment was part of that attitude. I'm glad it's changed.

God, how awful for your mum, and the awful thing is I think that kind of thing probably used to happen a lot. There used to be such an awful culture of silence and victim blaming around sexual assault. I know those problems haven't gone away, but I think we've come a long way since those days, thank goodness.

My elderly DM lives with me and I cringe if anything related to rape or sexual assault comes on TV, she totally assimilated the victim blame culture growing up and will trot out nasty little comments like 'Well, what was she doing alone with him, she was asking for it' etc etc. We've had endless rows about this over the years, to the point where I would never have told her if I'd been raped, as she was bound to have reached the conclusion I'd asked for it in some way. 😕

I'm not trying to say everyone of that generation was like that, obviously, but there was far too much of that general mentality about and imo things like wolf whistling was the thin end of the wedge.

Just to add though, I don't think men in their fifties are too bad on this front, I'm that age myself and most of the men I know are more enlightened (although tbf I don't know any builders, perhaps it's still the norm in that line of work 😄) I think most of the offenders are in the 60 plus age group these days.

Is it a generation thing? I think it's a different individual thing. My elderly mother never subscribed to victim blaming ("what was she wearing etc). She's like me though in having concern that equating wolf whistling to sexual assault as actually harming sexual assault victims because it allows people to be dismissive of sexual assault victims.

Many won't say it out loud, many might not even consciously do it, but by lumping in a passing (single) wolf whistle with sexual assault, people start to feel more dismissive when a victim of actual assault (or harassment) speaks about or reports it. As I've said, I've experienced those consequences.

I don't know why some posters are doggedly sticking to the concept of not calling elements of abusive behaviour (wolf-whistling and the like) by what it is - sexual harassment. The people who are dismissive of using proper terms are the ones perpetuating the behaviour and minimising the impact of working to stamp it out. Their opinions do not hold more weight than anybody else's.

If you want to minimise it for yourself then feel free but don't you dare tell other women that they mustn't use the terminology that they want to/feel they need to.

As numerous people have now said, it's not about lumping wolf-whistling with sexual assault, it's about understanding that behaviour like that is part of a similar attitude. That our bodies are fair game for commentary.
I don't know about 'starting to feel dismissed', we always were dismissed, far more than now. I was raped 36 years ago. I didn't even tell my parents, let alone the police at the time, because I didn't think I would be listened to. Sexual assault in general was much less recognised, partly because of a culture of the acceptance of 'mild' behaviours like wolf-whistling, catcalling etc.
There's a reason why so many cases of sexual abuse are coming to court after 20, 30 and 40 years. We weren't listened to. We were dismissed, or we simply didn't report it because we knew we wouldn't be listened to, or would be treated like we were 'asking for it'.

Exactly, ObelixTheGaul, it is the thin end of the wedge. It's disrespectful behaviour that men foist on whatever woman is walking past, regardless of whether that woman would appreciate being verbally accosted or not. Men that do this then have no mind for when women don't want to be approached or touched because it's not about the woman at all, it's all about the man's wants.

The analogy of broken window covers this; if a building is seen to have a broken window and is not fixed (corrected) then it isn't long before all the windows in the building have been put through, for no reason other than why not? All knuckle-draggers think this way.

Wolf-whistling isn't mild, it is unwanted attention for many women who are subjected to it.

@bringincrazyback Yes I've heard those comments from that generation too "well she did go out in a short skirt" "well what do you expect that's what men are like" "boys will be boys" "of course men love teenagers they think with their dick" and many more... yuck.

Their opinions do not hold more weight than anybody else's.

Absolutely. Which is why I've said previously on this thread I'm just giving my personal opinion. Which is according to another poster below as valid as anyone else's.

As she says* I really hate this idea that women's opinions about sexual harassment and assault are somehow worth less if we've been the victims of these crimes. No one tries to silence the victims of any other crime in this way.*

So please don't accuse me of doing something I'm not when you say below:

If you want to minimise it for yourself then feel free but don't you dare tell other women that they mustn't use the terminology that they want to/feel they need to.

Indeed. Absolutely nobody should tell other women that. Whichever way they feel. As I've said previously on this thread, I don't believe in aggressively imposing or enforcing my views on anyone else.

I simply stated how I personally feel (as a victim of sexual assault). Although even if I wasn't I assume I'm entitled to my personal opinion?

Possibly my experience of the physical sexual assault (and how some reacted to me speaking about it/reporting it) has influenced my opinion on this but for whatever reason I personally find it offensive to compare a single wolf whistle to sexual assault or harassment and don't see it as connected.

Again, I'm just speaking for me and am fully aware not everyone (maybe most others?), won't share my view - and I would never expect to force them to.

I should leave this thread now because although I (personally) find wolf whistles harmless, I find aggression (from women as much as men) more upsetting. I'm sorry if that's not your intention but the quotes I've included in this reply came across to me as aggressive and intolerant of views that don't agree with you. Again apologies if I'm being oversensitive on a topic that perhaps is triggering for me.

The thread isn't about wolf whistling, it's about being cat called - men shouting out stuff at you in the street.

I do apologise for possibly getting oversensitive. It's best I leave this thread because I don't know if I'm being objective and think it might be triggering (I didn't realise but now I think I have been).

I'll try to think about the points made by others on here when I'm feeling calmer. I appreciate other viewpoints and although don't always change my mind, sometimes I do.

Male sexual dominance of women exists on a continuum of least-serious to most-serious behaviour, just like male violence towards other men does.

No one would seek to argue that shoving someone is as bad as murder, yet we still recognise both as manifestations of violence. In the same way, no one is arguing that a wolf whistle is anywhere near as bad as the appalling fate that Sara Everard suffered, yet we can surely recognise that both are rooted in a male belief that women exist for men's enjoyment.

My own experience of everything from wolf-whistles to rape is that all of it presumes me to be an object for male enjoyment and that my own feelings and wishes are irrelevant and men can ignore them. It's intimidating and infuriating and the risk of another wolf-whistle, cat-call, or unwanted hand on my arse on the train honestly makes me not want to leave my house.

Agree. I was just about to make the same point about the continuum.

Brilliant post 👏🏼👏🏼