Did women used to enjoy being catcalled?

[Gofastboatsmojito]

Hi,

Filtering a recent discussion with my stepmum I just wanted to survey the 55+ year olds of mumsnet to check whether I'm way off.

She is absolutely insistent that in her youth women (most? all?) enjoyed being whistled or shouted appreciatively at when waking past a building site.

She thinks women's perception of this has changed in the last 20 years. All her friends enjoyed it in the 70s and 80s apparently.

For context she has been the subject of male violence including sexual violence and does not equate the two.

I find it hard to believe everyone enjoyed it and assume that women felt a lot less able to say they didn't like it due to fear of being called frigid, uptight etc.

I'm sure the answer might lie somewhere between the two extremes but just wondering what an AIBU poll might say.

V grateful if women of age 55+ only vote

YABU = in my youth the majority of women I knew considered a wolf whistle as a cheeky but welcome compliment

YANBU = I didn't enjoy this even in the 70s

Who was talking about making criminal complaints about being catcalled? It's not illegal, so who even does that?

I think it's pretty simple. Men that shout at women are nobheads, and most of us probs do think it's ultimately pretty rude, but most people also like being told they look good.

You're probably right, Galadriell, but if women are validated by a random knobhead's assessment of how they look then that's sad.

The arrogance of said knobhead, to think for a single second, that their opinion should matter to any woman.

I’m 42, in my experience some of it has been sarcastic! So, personally cat calling is a no from me.

Calm down love. It's really not that deep.

I think men like this always do what they would like done to themselves.. they'd love women to shout compliments at them in the street, they'd love to be sent unexpected vagina pics, they'd love women to make intense eye contact with them as they walk by, they'd love their girlfriend to grope them etc
So they think we should be grateful

I'm not the one who got stroppy over this, darling.
Take your own advice.

My mam used to love it, she was very proud of her looks & (her words) figure, it was a total validation to her that she "still had it" at 40 or whatever

I never minded it tbh, it never felt threatening & sure it doesn't happen anymore because obviously times have changed but one thing that absolutely drives me mad & always has done is the "cheer up love, it might never happen" or the "smile" brigade😡

If the women who like it don't get wolf-whistled, no harm is done.

If the women who don't like it get wolf-whistled, at best they are offended and at worst they feel threatened.

The option that causes the least harm is not to wolf-whistle.

Think you need to read the posts back...

This is a bit difficult for me, we were told it was a compliment and we should be flattered but while it did sometimes come over as such, as often as not it felt a bit demeaning, or vaguely threatening. Or both.
I can remember my then flatmate's (married) boyfriend calling out 'hiya, sexy' to me in the street, which was definitely not nice. I should have told her but I bottled it. He was a real piece of work.
I worked in the City and I can also remember a bowler hatted gent stopping me and very politely telling me I had the best legs he'd seen in a long time and I can't say I was offended. This was in the mid 70s.
I am in the specified age range and it certainly doesn't happen any longer! But sometimes I do still get the once-over, which definitely feels weird and not right. (I am no oil painting, I can assure you. Some men must have low standards, it seems... )
But I think it's something young women are much less likely to put up with these days. More power to them.

I simply gave my view, which is what the OP asked for (albeit she wanted views from women older than me). I never claimed to answer for anyone else - other than my, similarly aged to me, friend.

I know her opinion because we've previously discussed it. As we've both been sexually assaulted in the past it's something we've talked with each other about. You're absolutely entitled to your view - and likewise so are we. And our personal view is it's harmful - and offensive - to victims of actual sexual assault to equate it to a brief passing (not groping etc) throwaway wolf whistle. You of course are free to disagree and I never said otherwise.

You talk about enforcing people into an exchange. Maybe that's how you see a brief passing wolf whistle and that's your right. I personally see it as something easily forgotten and ignored as can just walk on by (obviously persistent not taking no for an answer is not the same as a passing wolf whistle/"hello gorgeous", and is harassment but that's two different things). You obviously have the right to see it differently.

However regarding enforcing people. Your post highlights to me interesting questions about interpretation and intent, and about imposing opinions on others.

A good example perhaps of different interpretations of intent. Just as you feel a brief passing wolf whistle is as harmful as sexual assault, I feel your post was unsettling aggressive complete with the shouting (words in capital letters). Just goes to show how we all react differently to things - whether a wolf whistle, or a post on an online forum.

I don't believe in imposing my views on others. So please don't accuse me of doing so when I simply gave my views in my posts. I never suggested any other poster need agree with me. I don't believe in imposed opinions.

Over 60. No way was it flattering or welcoming. The men whistling would never remotely be anyone I was interested in approval from, and I deeply resented the implication that they had any right to express their approval (or otherwise). I find it incredibly sad that any woman/young woman would be flattered. It made me angry and contemptuous then, as it does now l, when I see middle aged men eying up or catcalling my teenage daughter.

I simply meant that if complaints are dominated by 'he called me this' or 'he put his hand on my shoulder' then when a man does far, FAR worse to a woman, there's a chance she won't be believed.

Yes. And exactly this HAS already happened and is getting worse. It's happened to me (physical serious sexual assault) and to my friend (raped) including from professional support services like the NHS (not all HCPs but it's definitely some, as both my friend and I discovered).

It's had a harmful and detrimental impact on victims. But then it's easier and cheaper to talk (or type) angry All Men Are Predators stuff than actually fund practical help and support for victims of sexual assault and VAWG. Declaring wolf whistling is Very Bad, whilst cutting funding to rape crisis centres and other VAWG services.

one thing that absolutely drives me mad & always has done is the "cheer up love, it might never happen" or the "smile" brigade

That's irritating, yes I agree (although I recognise some people genuinely mean well with it even if it's not really helpful).

I will say though it's as much women as men who do that. Unless it's only where I live? Definitely round here it's been both sexes.

I'm sorry if it was unclear, but I was not referring to the imposition of opinions on others. This is a forum, in which we are all offering our opinions as is the nature of AIBU.
What I was referring to was that you had suggested that you did not mind wolf whistles, etc, therefore you found it acceptable for you/your friends to wolf whistle other people on the basis that you don't mind it. It's fine that you don't mind a wolf whistle. What is not fine is wolf whistling random strangers on the basis that if you don't mind it, other people shouldn't either.
Nothing wrong with your opinion. Your opinion is not the imposition. If you are wolf-whistling random strangers, that is the imposition. On the random stranger who did not ask for your attention in this manner.

If I read it incorrectly, and you/your friends don't wolf-whistle strangers then I apologise. But that's how I read it and that's what I meant.

Maybe poor etiquette to quote my own post, but I forgot to add and too late to edit my post.

Regarding not being believed. It's about what people don't say out loud or even subsconsciencely think - that they won't admit openly, sometimes not even to themselves. It's all very well insisting everyone views something as bad. Sometimes they can even feel compelled to say they agree. What they actually think but don't voice is another matter.

Of course, as I've said before, it's just my opinion (and obviously others have the right to disagree), but, it's an opinion based on real life experience of physical sexual assault, and of the way it's addressed.

Both the attitudes, especially those not said out loud, of the general public (women as much as men) and the reality of cuts to services like rape crisis centres and other VAWG services and the decreasing support available to victims.

No one is equating street harassment with rape. However it's on the same spectrum of behaviour, demonstrating how women are made to feel objectified, intimidated and humiliated in the public sphere.

It comes from seeing women and girls as 'less than', which affects women in every part of life culminating in domestic abuse, rape and homicide.

You must have heard of the broken window effect which is a sociological theory about small signs of neglect leading to worse behaviour. Cat calling is just a small part of misogyny, it all builds up and can lead to the normalisation of unacceptable behaviour.

I think that differernt women had different views on it.

But it also depended on the situation. One being whether it came off as risky/scary. There were always differernt factors, whether it was one guy or a bunch, if they seemed otherwise respectful, etc. So the same woman might feel differently depending on the situation. It's hard to describe what made some times feel better than others but it was a real thing.

@ObelixtheGaul I admit it's an emotive topic for me (sexual assault) and perhaps I need to read over your points again.

Just to say. I think maybe my previous posts weren't clear or maybe you've misinterpreted them.

I don't wolf whistle anyone. My friends and I did I the past when young and giggly. We're older and a bit 'mumsy' now (looks, and attitude/behaviour) so no longer do that.

In the past, we (men and women) didn't mind doing or receiving it at the time. However if it's true that the majority today say they don't like it, then obviously it's best if people, male or female, no longer do it.

In the past, at least in my area where I lived, the generally accepted view was it was harmless (that does not include groping or harassment which was never ok). If the general view has changed, than I appreciate people should respect that and stop doing it.

I still don't accept it's comparable to sexual assault including groping. However, although I don't wish to see the two imo separate issues grouped together (for reasons I and a few other posters have outlined) if it's not something most people today want, then I guess that's a modern change people might need to go along with.

It's perfectly possible to do that without grouping it in with sexual assault. That's obviously just my opinion though.

The focing people into an exchange thing is interesting.

I think this is part of a huge social change that goes well beyond wolf whistles.

It used to be seen as completely fine, normal, and good that we had all kinds of interactions in society with strangers. People used to drop in to friends and family unannounced, there were significant expectations for all around hospitality, and public interactions were not only common but valued.

We now have a lot of people who see a phone call or someone knowing at the door as a real imposition. Neighbourhood FB groups say "some strange person knocked at my door, OMG!" People feel that any expectation they talk to a stranger in a line or at the bank or whatever is too much.

I don't think that even those of us who hated all wolf whistles, or even flirting in general, would have likely made quite that kind of argument back in the 70s or 80s. The idea that you could be to "forcing" people to interact and that was a wrong thing to do just was not mainstream or accepted widely. It would probably be seen as quite antisocial and anti-community.

What a bizarre argument!

The last time I was cat called, he said, "Nice minge." It's not antisocial of me not to acknowledge his disgusting comment and flirt with him.

Before that a man said, "Bet she likes it up the arse." Again, apparently I'm antisocial for not striking up a conversation.

It used to be seen as completely fine, normal, and good that we had all kinds of interactions in society with strangers.

Read the thread. Read how many women hate being harassed in public and never thought it was fine even though it was normalised.

Not liking harassment is not the same as not talking to someone about the weather in a queue.

I don't see it as the same. But I do see it as part of the general idea that our bodies are open season for commentary. That somehow they do not belong to us.
It's an emotive subject for me, too, because I experienced the opposite. Being barked at, told how ugly I was, etc. The assumed right to pass comment on a stranger's attractiveness or otherwise is why I think it's not on.

I am, btw, a rape survivor. And I think attitudes to rape in this country are appalling still, and whilst I take your point about the harm of equating the two, I still think they are linked. It's all part of the attitude that my body is the property of other people. It doesn't mean a wolf-whistler is a rapist, but the long-held attitude of 'suck it up, it's just a bit of fun' is all part of relinquishing ownership of my own body. My right to not have to endure attention I do not want. If that makes sense.

This actually has nothing to do with what I said.

My experiences show just how shallow minded some men can be.

I used to be slim.
Received wolf whistles.

Went up to 17 stones (illnesses and having babies)
No wolf whistles.

Lost 7 stones (diet & exercise)
Received wolf whistles.

Put 2 stone back on.
A few wolf whistles.

Slimmed again.
Many wolf whistles.

Pathetic.........