Did women used to enjoy being catcalled?

[Gofastboatsmojito]

Hi,

Filtering a recent discussion with my stepmum I just wanted to survey the 55+ year olds of mumsnet to check whether I'm way off.

She is absolutely insistent that in her youth women (most? all?) enjoyed being whistled or shouted appreciatively at when waking past a building site.

She thinks women's perception of this has changed in the last 20 years. All her friends enjoyed it in the 70s and 80s apparently.

For context she has been the subject of male violence including sexual violence and does not equate the two.

I find it hard to believe everyone enjoyed it and assume that women felt a lot less able to say they didn't like it due to fear of being called frigid, uptight etc.

I'm sure the answer might lie somewhere between the two extremes but just wondering what an AIBU poll might say.

V grateful if women of age 55+ only vote

YABU = in my youth the majority of women I knew considered a wolf whistle as a cheeky but welcome compliment

YANBU = I didn't enjoy this even in the 70s

You're making the argument that wolf whistling and street harassment were part of interaction in public. Otherwise I have no idea what your post has to do with the thread.

Isn't that just human nature (female as well as male)?

What society tends to consider conventially good looking young males get more attention than what society considers less aesthetically pleasing men - overweight balding older etc.

I remember the diet coke ad, where a group of female office workers giggly ogled a young attractive male window cleaner. The ad wouldn't have cast an overweight older builders crack man in the role

Shallow and superficial, I suppose, but then passing attraction tends to be. It's not the same as a long lasting relationship built on love for the person, rather than their looks.

Added to my previous post, another famous advert was the Nick Kamen undressing in the launderette advert. I think it was for Levis jeans.

He was, I understand, considered a young good-looking (male) heartthrob. The advert wouldn't have cast an older overweight man in that role.

So true. But on MN you are meant to be oblivious to anyone's physical attractiveness and instead look beyond to the beauty of the souls.

I just know when DH first approached me in a club he was attracted to the sweetness of my inner spirit.

The thread is about how women in the 70s and 80s felt about wolf whistling.

Several people commented on the idea of it as an unasked for social interaction - "forced". With the idea being that an unsought social interaction is an imposition.

I said that I didn't think that argument would really have been used in the 70s and 80s, and reflects a much more recent attitude to social interaction in general. Women in the past didn't necessarily like that kind of behaviour, but not for that reason.

Or the porridge oats one, I think he was in a river?

@TempestTost I don't remember the porridge oats ad but just googled it.

Back in the 90s he starred in a series of ads for the breakfast food, one saw him emerging NAKED from a river, another saw a gust of wind lift his kilt and flash what was underneath.

https://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/remember-when-the-hound-from-game-of-thrones-was-this-super-sexy-scot-selling-porridge-oats-5965302/

(Decided to google Nick Kamen too - and sad to find out he died a couple of years ago. He was only 59.)

I disagree having experienced it in both the 70/80/90s and a few years ago. It was always an unwanted social interaction.

As a teenager it was mortifying. As a young adult, aggressive, humiliating and intimidating. It wasn't just street harassment that was awful, there was a lot of harassment in pubs and clubs as well. Men grabbing at you, trying to 'interact' with you and getting aggressive when you weren't interested.

I haven't noticed people being less interested in social interaction. I still chat about the weather while waiting for the bus. I have noticed street harassment being less socially acceptable.

As teens, 14/15yo me and my friend used to put on a short skirt and go and hang out by the main road, specifically to see how many hoots and catcalls we could get.

By the time I was 18yo, I hated walking past a building site.

That's not what I am saying. (And it wasn't always unwanted, we can see quite a few women did not think that, so it seems to have been mixed.)

There is a difference between not wanting a social interaction, and thinking that having social interactions is something that we need to have agreed to ahead of time.

The latter is a new idea and it has really changed how people interact socially.

And FWIW< I like to interact and chat, but there are a good number of people now who don't - they resent for example if the grocery clerk tries to chat, even if it doesn't slow things down. They see that as an unasked for social interaction, and an imposition.

The porridge ad reminded me how in the past, some women used to lift up men's kilts (without asking). Imo that's worse than a wolf whistle. A single passing wolf whistle, not sustained shouting.

Maybe I'm in the wrong and need to reassess my views, I don't know. I should say, if it's relevant, I differentiate between a single wolf whistle as opposed to continued and/or aggressive and intimidating shouting. I am, as I've said, though perhaps not able to be objective on this thread and topic because my views are influenced by experience of serious physical sexual assault.

Definitely though sexual harassment (and sexual assault), and what constitutes it, is an issue affecting both women and men.

The article below doesn't only discuss lifting up a kilt. It discusses jokes from women about "what's under your kilt". As on this thread, with some women not minding or being flattered by wolf whistles, the men have varied views. Some find it offensive for someone to joke about it, others think it's fine.

In a post shared thousands of times before being deleted, he said: "Happy Sunday to everyone except the woman who lifted up my kilt in a crowded bar last night without my permission. Imagine if I'd done that with her dress."

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sexism-row-erupts-after-woman-26319164

I’m 38 so haven’t voted.
But I remember as a teen my friend saying “they’re doing it so that when you turn around they can laugh at you for assuming you’re the one they’re whistling at. So never turn round.”

I therefore associate it with paranoia and humiliation. Not sure if that is due to the whistling or my friend’s take on it. Probably both I guess.

I'm obviously clueless as to what you're saying as you keep dismissing what I'm saying as wrong.

The majority of women on the thread did not appreciate street harassment. Some said they didn't mind.

Again, you're referring to street harassment as 'interaction'. Shouting 'Get your tits out.' or 'Don't get many of them to the pound.' isn't 'interaction'. Interaction is trying to engage with someone, hopefully with respect.

You seem to be suggesting (and will no doubt tell me this isn't what you're saying) that street harassment was acceptable at a time when strangers interacted more.

It was certainly more normalised than it is now. It was more part of everyday life for women and girls, but society was considerably more openly sexist.

However that's not to say that a respectful encounter with someone you're attracted to isn't going to be welcome, or the human race would have ended.

I think your friend was right. As an older woman now it makes me quite sad to think young teenage girls have developed this level of insight on this behaviour from men.

I'm in my mid 60s and I've never had a problem with catcalling or wolf whistling. I always took it as a compliment, and it gave me a little inner lift. My friends all felt the same way.

Many on this thread have higher self-esteem than to want the validation of strange men.

It's a "compliment" in the same way that my cat staring at a mouse is a compliment to the mouse.

Exactly @MaidOfAle it always makes me feel like prey, not a person.

I really hate this idea that women's opinions about sexual harassment and assault are somehow worth less if we've been the victims of these crimes. No one tries to silence the victims of any other crime in this way.

No one went around accusing the victims of road traffic accidents or muggings of not being "objective". It's only this one set of crimes, overwhelmingly carried out by men against women, that the victims have to shut up about. This is not a coincidence.

Excellent point, @MaidOfAle

@MaidOfAle 😆😆😆. Thanks, but I don't have an issue with my self esteem and I certainly don't need validation from any men, strange or otherwise. I am very happy and confident in my appearance and have never dressed to please anyone but myself. But that doesn't mean that I find it offensive, unacceptable, or anything else if I get wolf whistled. At my age, it doesn't happen very often now, but it's still nice when it does.

You were born in 1983 judging by your username so you're only 41? Why doesn't it happen as often do you think?
And if you say just because these men prefer them young then doesn't that at least disgust you?
I'm in my 40s and it's only got worse

Would you feel the same way about it if you were alone, on a dark street with no help around, and a group of men were making lewd comments to you?
I'm going to go ahead and assume you'd be scared, because you'd be crazy not to be.
So why is it any different at high noon than at three in the morning? In either case the men are showing that they have potential to assault you, because they don't care if they frighten or upset you.
Just something to think about.
IMO everybody who has said it that she finds it complimentary should ask herself that question.
It's not intended to be complimentary. It's an expression of power. The man may not particularly mean to upset you, may even lie to himself that he does mean to compliment you, but the reality is that he doesn't care in the least how you feel about it. It's done for his own ego gratification and to fit in with other men around him.

I am not saying anything about whether people liked it, or not, in the past.

I am saying that a specific reason one poster gave reflected a modern sensibility around public interactions in general. But that people in the 70s and 80s generally did not see public interactions in general in that light.

So they would have been unlikely to characterize street harassment as problematic for that particular reason. Even if they thought it was quite beyond the pale, it would be for different reasons - vulgar, nasty, scary, sexist, etc.

@Disturbia81 what an odd assumption to make. I was born in 1957, which makes me 66. I think in general catcalling and wolf whistling happens much less now because times have changed. It happens much less to me now because in my experience it tends to be younger men who do this and I don't think most would be wolf whistling at a pensioner 😆😆.