To wonder (thinking about this awful French rape case) if humans are just rotten

[OptimismvsRealism]

It wasn't just the husband - at least 80 men went along with this. Guys with ordinary lives drawn out of nowhere.

I wonder if it would be better if we were to just wind things up as a species.

Genuinely not looking to derail the thread and detract from the horror of what this poor woman has suffered but can anyone point me in the direction of resources/books etc that you think could help to raise good men who would never behave like this regardless of the scenario. I’ve two little boys and I honestly despair, I want to make them better than other men

Men would do anything for sex, we all know it.

It’s certainly a depressing statistic. I gathered from the article I read that these men were were found on specific forums indicating they had an interest in this sort of thing generally. I hope that most “ordinary” men would decline the offer if presented but I’m sure I’d still be disgusted by the number who would accept. Just look at Joyti Singh who was brutally raped on a bus, by multiple men including the driver, they saw an opportunity to be absolutely vile and took it.

Bow make a list of the men, come back when you’ve finished. You may be some time.

@Thewildthingsarewithme do they have a father around? He needs to make sure that he models a consistently respectful and considerate attitude to girls and women. My son is nearly 30. He's lovely, kind respectful. I did my part, but more importantly, his Dad guided him and showed him how to behave. It can be done.

What I find terrifying is that this HUGE HUGE number of men were from such a small area.

I'm astounded that on a thread on this subject, so many women are behaving in a really vile and disrespectful way to other women. Not just disagreeing but really rude.

Have your opinions and express them. People are entitled to say it isn't all men, or whatever they choose. Debate like adults and stop kicking other women, who should not be the target for your rage.

I was advised that my rape had nothing to do with finances.

I left that marriage with son and a black bin liner. My ex stayed in the house. So he raped me and got the fucking house.

This.

I do think that how the men in our own houses behave is relevant. So much sexism is the cause of mirth, and these men are setting examples to their children.

It's horrifying and grim in the extreme. Maybe the culprits could be rounded up and castrated but I suppose even if they couldn't physically rape women then men would assault, hurt and damage women anyway because it's not just perverted sexual pleasure it's misogyny, dominance, control, disdain etc.

I'm probably not meant to say this stuff but sometimes I hate men.

So the ladies must behave with ladylike politeness and refrain from logical debate? People can of course say what they like, as you say. If one set of arguments is stronger than the other, that's how we test what's right. If we go by your rules, we'd all be so busy 'being kind' we would be dimwits, or is that the whole idea?

Not to mention Putin, the Taliban, Netanyahu, Hamas-all men.

6,000 inhabitants...

Of those, 51.7% will be women, so 2,898 males. 20.9% of the population of France are children, so that leaves 2,292 adult men. Then 4% of people in France are gay, which leaves 2,201 straight adult men.

Some of those men will have been ill, elderly, disabled etc, and lots won't have seen the husband's posts looking for rapists. But despite that, 3.6% of the local population of adult men still raped her. (Figure based on 80 men, but we all know it may well be more)

And of those who didn't rape her, but knew what was happening from his posts, or who walked out when they realised what was going on - not a single one reported it.

The scale is what makes this so horrifying. That so many men knew and participated, but said nothing.

Its possible to respectfully hold a boundary that its okay to focus on male violence without the open sneering contempt you displayed. Another poster managed to do this. Doing so doesn't derail the thread. Unfortunately your open contempt to a survivor of sexual abuse has because, without apology, I refuse to be a silent bystander when I witness that, particularly when its a female survivor of violence of a feminist thread.

Yes.time for vlad to drop the big one.

No just realistic.

It's overwhelmingly men and its disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

As always in discussions like this I am left wondering what do men actually have to do before a thread like this, triggered specifically by a collective act of male violence on one woman - literally 80 something men versus 1 woman - is not high jacked with cries of ‘not all men’ or ‘women are abusers too’.

Not all men but so many we can never know who.

Not all men but the ‘good’ ones who are your darling feminist husband and son do next to nothing to challenge their peers or mates, because god forbid things might get uncomfortable. Feminist men benefit from misogyny just as much as the Neanderthals do.

‘But women are abusers too’. As a PP has said, yes but so few that the most notorious ones date back decades.

This man was able to chat openly with and get 80 odd men to come to his house and rape his drugged wife and not one of them broke rank to report him.

Many were local to him so he didn’t even have to go far to find them.
If this is a sample size of how many men in a small town are predators, what do those numbers look like on a national or international scale? Not all men but a fucking lot of them.

How many did he discuss it with who didn’t turn up and yet still did not report it? Not all men but a fucking lot of them.

How many forums, WhatsApps and threads have men just like these in them who discuss women as objects to use for their pleasure and nothing more?

We are at crisis level with the amount of sexual and physical violence being perpetrated against women and girls yet we have women on here bleating that it’s not all men and must be a woman’s fault. In that sense you are correct it’s not all men. It’s men and their handmaidens.

Every single person who reacts to an atrocity against women with Not All Men is part of the problem and siding with the abusers.

There was another thread where a poster said that ALL men benefit from women’s fear. That hit me like a ton of bricks because it’s true. Even ‘my Nigel’

I remember that post and it struck me like a ton of bricks too because, fuck me, its true,

"and meant kindly, who the fuck do you lot think you are telling people like me we are not allowed to discuss our experiences on a thread like this"

Ah yes, the "be kind" movement.

When it ends up with the same 3 female horrors being trotted out because, of course, everyone knows their name, the reason being they are so rare, it is insulting.

This case is horrific, and one that would never be committed by women.

I agree.

Indeed.

The whataboutery is tiresome.

Shame on anyone coming on this thread and defending men. Read the room.

Sneering contempt is not logical debate, and yeah, when its targeted at a survivor of sexual abuse recounting her experience and how it frames her perceptions, I think it is a dick move.

There is a time when respectfully holding boundaries actually is appropriate, and this was it.

FFS

They still won't pick you, you know