To wonder (thinking about this awful French rape case) if humans are just rotten

[OptimismvsRealism]

It wasn't just the husband - at least 80 men went along with this. Guys with ordinary lives drawn out of nowhere.

I wonder if it would be better if we were to just wind things up as a species.

@Lostboys16 And for those of us more outraged by the violence of men than the meanness of women, our experiences are just as valid, yet you came on to scold us for our views because oh no, men can’t be criticised because women were bitchy to you.

Fuck that woman in France and those multiple rapes. Men must not be called out until all women behave nicely.

@Lostboys16 I just read from your posts that you're saying ( this case aside), the emotional torment that women are capable of ( and we are) may feel for some akin to the physical suffering men are capable of inflicting.

I do get what you're saying.

I think here though this particular case is so hideous and represents a very scary collective mindset of overpowering by force- which is going to always be way worse (e.g this example ) when compared to the emotional torment a few female bullies can do.

Actually can work in some cases but I wasn’t talking about chemical castration…

But in your experience a woman being mean to you was worse than a man RAPING you? I honestly think you’re just trying to wind people up, I mean c’mon

Funny how nobody is saying "please don't use the term Nigel as it's offensive" but mention a Karen and all hell breaks fucking loose and to the poster who basically told another woman to start her own thread about how awful women can be because this one is just about how awful men are, so fucking compassionate and shows just how lovely us women can really be doesn't it. It's a fucking joke on here sometimes and the irony just seems to pass some posters by all while they claim to be on the side of their fellow women.

You ‘get’ that a woman being mean to another woman is worse than being raped by a man? Wow.

What about men being mean to women? I hear men all the time calling women fat and ugly. I mean obviously this isn’t the same as actual RAPE but do they get off with it because women have to be kind and compassionate?

Er why do women have to be kind and compassionate???????

If she thinks rape is that insignificant, why bother mentioning it at all?

Being called a man in a dress is far worse for her.

You cannot be serious! You are seriously suggesting being raped is the same as being called ‘a man in a dress’’? Well you’re not even suggesting it’s the same, you’re suggesting it’s worse 🤣🤣

There is no "dadsnet" with thousands of posts from men who are scared of their wife, controlled by their wife, trying desperately to work out how to keep their wife, asking if they should forgive their wife for fucking numerous younger men

This website exists at least in part because of the thousands of women living and existing with men who treat them absolute shit, who are violent, controlling and worse.

Violence against women is an epidemic. It's a pattern. Of course some women are violent, a handful of women have done some terrible things - there are always outliers, but it is millions of men. It's not comparable

Women are not safe in their own homes. Whether in awful extreme cases like this or the thousands of other cases on this website and beyond - and it's insulting and frustrating to not be able to call out male violence without somebody mentioning Myra bloody Hindely. Searching for an example from 60 years ago only proves the bloody point. Nobody will remember this French blokes name because male violence is so common.

Where do they say they are female?

Exactly. I think intelligence and logic can see this. I am horrified by the case in France, it's incomprehensible what this man has done to his family. Just pure evil.

But when I read online that this a reason to be suspicious of all men, or that men in general are vile, I can't stand by that. It's not my experience of men.

You were raped by a man?????

Because the word "karen" is used as another way to shut women up.

It was me that told the poster to start her own thread. I don't think a post about a woman being raped by 70 men is the appropriate place to start saying "but women are just as bad" do you?

The fact you think all woman are supposed to be lovely also shows how ingrained patriarchy is in you. You've been groomed and conditioned to believe women should act a certain way whilst men do as they please and have the benefit of men and women justifying their actions.

It's totally what it's about. Power.

@Lizzie67384 don't lump me into the apologists camp! I'm perhaps not articulating this well enough.

Let's put this case aside - for the poster I quoted, I am understanding her feelings - she feels more tormented by the emotional abuse she suffered at the hands of women. This impacted her more for whatever reason. She is allowed to feel that way!
Does this mean I think rape is ok? No way. Am I secretly scared of what I fear most men think? Yes I am. I'm supporting the poster in her feelings. She's entitled to this. The ongoing torment at the hands of women impacted her more. That doesn't impact my feelings on this case, on our situation as females etc.
Read my other posts on this thread.
I am permanently single by choice for a reason. Yet I won't dismiss or pile on to the other poster for her own personal experience. Maybe it's better to question and challenge why this is her feeling and if there's something relevant in that.

Isn't it?

And there's the rub. You wouldn't catch me anywhere near an MRA site under any pretext. One: I'm not its target readership and it isn't for me and two, I don't doubt 'offensive' is the least of what I'd find its content.

But Mumsnet - the clue being in the title - is swarming with MRAs, to the point where it's impossible to have these conversations without the constant, whining, 'this site hates men' derails we have come to expect.

Women are not to have one space, be it cyber or otherwise, where we can discuss urgent, pressing issues overwhelmingly affecting us as a demographic, without the NAMALTS, or WAJABs (women are just as bad), or Nigels turning up to rebuke them. These idiots couldn't be more obvious if their posts came tagged with flashing red lights and bell on the top.

They are repetitive, dull, tedious, banal, predictable, and tiresome. Would that they'd all fuck off.

Again, on a thread about a woman being raped by 70 men this is what you're concerned about? Yes, they should've started their own thread about women's violence against women, they would've got all the support they required, instead of feeling the need to derail and minimise this one wanting to discuss male violence including sexual violence against women.

Compassion seems to be going only one way here.

Er you said you could understand why a woman would feel that another woman being ‘mean’ to her is worse than a man raping her.

So you’re in your house, a woman comes in and says ‘hey lady, you look like a man in a dress!) a man comes in and starts violently raping you… you see these two things as the same thing?

That is bollocks. Woman have gone to war, they have raped, they have tortured, they have killed. We all know that men, as a group, are far more violent than women but your post is bollocks.

Let’s see some evidence of women at war raping men???

Isn’t it. So depressing.

In the interests of accuracy, no. I was on the defence team of a woman accused of rape (she pleaded guilty) in the 90's.

I've just caught up with today's proceedings on the Guardian website and like you I could feel my stomach physically heaving. One of the worst cases I have ever read about. All rape is vile and damaging but there is something so utterly depraved about this case. She is such an incredible woman but how she moves on from this I do not know. Unfathomable abuse and betrayal.

Very true, @AccidentallyWesAnderson. And in response to the post you originally replied to, 'Nigel' is a nice, benign little acronym for 'nicest guy who ever lived'.

Notwithstanding this might be delivered with a healthy dollop of sarcasm, it's a different proposition entirely from the excoriating, censorious tone of the 'Karen' pejorative.

Such are the different standards constantly applied to men as opposed to women - to the point that someone can make such a false equivalence without even a trace of irony.