To wonder (thinking about this awful French rape case) if humans are just rotten

[OptimismvsRealism]

It wasn't just the husband - at least 80 men went along with this. Guys with ordinary lives drawn out of nowhere.

I wonder if it would be better if we were to just wind things up as a species.

Just gets fucking worse, the more you read, thanks whoever got the New York Times on here with a token.,,,

Five of the men also face charges for possessing child sexual abuse imagery.

Classic, no, I’m guess I’m just the wrong kind of woman for you. One that’s been abused by another woman and would hope people could be a little bit more nuanced in their language. Please forgive me

every time we say it’s always men we minimise and dismiss the suffering of anybody who has been on the receiving end of abuse by a woman whether that’s neglect, domestic violence, assault all the way up to the more extreme and newsworthy cases

Every time we say its not just men we minimise and dismiss the suffering of anyone who has been on the receiving end of abuse by a man whether that's neglect, domestic violence, assault, all the way up to the more extreme and newsworthy cases.

No of course not. My point is it is not ALWAYS MEN and people may think that’s just a boring technicality and it’s fine to say it’s always men, but this is both factually incorrect, offensive, divisive, and unnecessary

But in this case, it was a man, it was in fact 70 men. Why is minimising this by saying its not just women helping?

What is factually incorrect about saying its always men, given that 98%of violent crimes are carried out by men?

Why is it factually incorrect to say that male violence is increasing, both male on female violence and male on male violence.

What needs to happen for you to stop excusing men's abhorrent behavior?

Why do you expect people to be ‘kind’ and ‘compassionate’ to you? Because we’re women?

Obviously it’s very sad that you were abused; but what has that really got to do with this thread? Everyone knows that women offend, but it is only men who commit acts of rape and violence on this scale. So not sure what you’re adding, really?

I was raped by a man - but I didn’t feel the need to add that into the discussion because I didn’t think my personal experience was that relevant to this discussion.

“What would men do if they didn’t have punishment as a consequence?”
Wow this statement really sent chills down my spine. Never thought of it like this before. It’s shocking to consider isn’t it?

The whole point of my original post was that it’s very upsetting, as somebody who is perfectly aware that women can be abusive, to constantly read other people saying it is always men

but that was a way back in the thread, and of course, as I’ve ended up being attacked and defending myself from various people. Many of my comments could easily be taken out of context.

my point was simply, there are victims of female abuse, and it is really not necessary to say it’s always men

it is accurate to say it is obviously disproportionately men and it’s a crisis, I just don’t understand why people feel the need to say it’s always men, It’s obviously not true, I just don’t see why people can’t be a bit more accurate and especially bearing in mind that there will be people here like me having to read this shit, who have been abused by women and had their lives deeply affected by it

For daring to mention this I’ve got people telling me they don’t give a shit that I was abused, other people accusing me of being a man, multiple people telling me to shut up.

so I guess I’ll leave you lot to it, enjoy your safe space

You say that, but I bet you can't name 80.

I believe to get to the truth, we need to be accurate in our language

^

The proof is in the pudding. Men commit more crime.

I'm not gonna preface everything I say by 'oh, statistically it's 'only' 98% of men who commit these crimes' every damn time

I think we are allowed to generalize

Yes, do we really have to preface every bloody thread about VAWG with 'oh but I know it's not all men, it's some women too'. We all know some women commit horrendous crimes. This is not what the thread's about.
It's not on the same scale as men though. Happens on every thread about this topic.

So if we don't focus on men and their crimes, what should we do?

Back of quietly and continually apologise for their wrongdoing?

Men really need to learn humility and shame.

I hate to say this to you as you are a survivor but what are you fighting here?

Noone says your abuse matters less because you were abused by a woman.

Why can't you acknowledge that the statistics show that its almost always men or a man is involved or benefitting somehow.

Once in a blue moon in will be a sole female perpetrator. If you had to leave your child alone with a man or a woman you didn't know, who would you pick? If you were escaping and told you could live with an unknown man or woman, who would you pick? you might choose a man. Fine, your choice. But why not start a thread with a poll and see what women vote for? Perhaps then you'll understand that just because many of us have suffered at the hands of men and that has shaed our viewpoint, it doesn't change or invalidate your experience.

:( to some extent you see it with behaviour during wars - gang rapes etc

But this post specifically refers to a 70 strong group men raping a woman.

So I will ask again, why did you need to minimise it by saying its not just men?

The only women involved in this abhorrent attack were the 4 female victims.

Did it make you feel better knowing its not all men after being assaulted by your Dad?

Disaster areas and conflict zones that are somewhat lawless give us an insight:

"There were reports of widespread rape after the 2010 Haiti earthquake"

"humanitarian workers in conflict zones across the world are reporting new cases of rape and gang rape daily"

Since my original post (which I’ve got every right to share on a public forum, especially given the gender neutral stament in the OP) all I’ve been doing is responding to a pile on. I’ve also got plenty of abused-by-men badges to my name, haven’t we all. There’s just no point trying to have a grown-up nuanced discussion on here about any of it. People are vicious, I find it staggering how confident and comfortable people are telling each other what they are and aren’t allowed to talk about - it’s not like I’m trying to divert the conversation off to another subject, my original post was relevant, but there you go, clearly there are very strict rules on what isn’t isn’t allowed in feminist discourse on mumsnet which is why I won’t be posting any further on this thread

and by the way, I have repeatedly said perpetrators are disproportionately male

But surely you were expecting people to respond to your post? It’s like you were just expecting everyone to agree with you?

This!

It's not just the men present in disaster areas that take advantage of a breakdown in normal society. Even the male humanitarian aid workers do it too, like the male Oxfam workers in Haiti.

You mean the male humanitarian aid workers who raped women, I assume?

She's been assaulted by a man and a woman and is keen for everyone to acknowledge that women are just as violent and commit as many crimes as men.

Yes, I had thought that was implicit in my phrasing, but I have edited for clarity, thank you.

Male perps were also raised by their fathers. Why are you so quick to blame the mother

Oh Lord, a male apologist finds their way even into a case like this.

It’s awful. The poor woman, so brave to face court.
And I’m amazed this went on in a French village, usually everyone knows everyone else’s business.

What's the difference between me saying it's always men and you saying but it's women too?

Why do you think I'm minimising yet I can't say you are?

Any thread about a specific male attack doesn't need other women upholding the patriarchy and insisting it's not all men.

Stop insisting otherwise. Everytime you raise that women commit crime too, you defend the men that attack and contribute to oppressing women further.