To wonder (thinking about this awful French rape case) if humans are just rotten

[OptimismvsRealism]

It wasn't just the husband - at least 80 men went along with this. Guys with ordinary lives drawn out of nowhere.

I wonder if it would be better if we were to just wind things up as a species.

I think there are too many men on mumsnet now, and it's really ruining the place. We can't have any space that's safe from them, it's really noticeable over the past 10 years. Even those that say 'I'm actually a woman' bloody aren't.

But this isn't about "humans", it's about male violence, like most of the world's violence is. Against women and other men, and children. Women are not as violent as men, that's the very simple fact of it.

Yep. I wasn't alive yet and I'm in my bloody 50s. That's how long ago it was.

Do you know what, if women were responsible for the scale of violence that so many men are, I would post on a thread highlighting it to agree. I would talk about how awful it is and what I thought the reasons were and what could be done to change it. I'd express my revulsion at the far too many women who behaved in this way. If that were the case.

That's pretty much what my (male) partner says whenever we discuss cases like this at home. What would be the point of him saying "well, Myra Hindley, though?".

Because the thread was started about the 70 men that were involved in the brutal rape of a woman.

Then along you come, trying to point out women are just as evil.

Defending men like this makes you part of the patriarchal problem. If you're comfortable with that, that's grand for you.

But on here and on real life, I will never EVER minimise male violence.

Ofc all humans can be awful. But by and large women are less likely to cause threat to life and limb. Obvs not all men, many men are nothing like this. But a culture that turns a blind eye to porn etc & can't ounish these crimes effectively nourishes this awful violence that far too many men take part in.

I think there are too many men on mumsnet now,

Surprisingly, maybe, I don't think I've heard that sentiment expressed before on MN. But I don't think there are many 'regular' male posters on MN. Someone posted some stats about it once.

Any woman tempted to NAMALT would benefit from reading this sentence over and over again. And so should men who like to think they are 'nice guys' but still do nothing.

It's funny... whenever Myra Hindley and Rose West are brought up on these threads, no-one ever says, "But men have to take responsibility too - what about her father? Why didn't he bring her up better?"

So women are responsible for their own actions. And the actions of their sons (see previous posts on this thread).

What do men take responsibility for exactly?

(Actually the question should be asked because their fathers often have quite a lot to do with it. A large proportion of women in prison are the products of abuse. Rose West's father was extremely physically and sexually abusive towards her when she was a child.)

Their responsibility is to protect each other and ensure women remain opressed

Yes some humans including women are just plain evil . The 32 in the news this week for drugging her 6yrs daughter so her pedophile partner could have sex with her , the deprived bitch involved in monkey torture , yes most evil deeds are done by men but women can be just as evil

I was having a conversation with a male friend of mine yesterday about the lack of spaces left in prisons at the moment,and the governments policy of releasing prisoners early to free up space. I said '96% of the prison population is male,only 4% are female. I think that tells us something'. He replied 'Yeah, woman are much less likely to be sent to prison than men'. I said 'No,women are much less likely to actually COMMIT the crimes that will get you sentenced to prison,than men'. Honestly. I give up sometimes.

Most humans aren't violent, but a significantly larger proportion of those who are are men.

These threads make me despair. Not just because of the dreadful news stories that inspire them but because of the naivety of some posters. I wonder what it will take to make people realise that men, as a class of people, are despicable. Some individuals are perfectly nice, but as a class of people they're responsible for virtually all the atrocities that have ever been committed.

There was a poster upthread who was extolling the virtues of her lovely son who apparently is simply incapable if doing anything like this. Maybe so. Bet he watches porn though. Sorry to burst your bubble.

How old are they? You can get a book called My First Book of Feminism (for Boys) off Amazon

Then it's role model all the way. Is Dad around? You both need to be seen to be doing all the jobs equally, there are no girl/boy jobs. He can clean and cook as well as you.

Get them tidying and add more jobs as they get older.

Teach them respect. As they get older teach them what No means. Teach them how treat their female friends equally

And they hit teens, Teach them to call their friends poor behaviour out such as making inappropriate comments about girls, the way they speak to girls etc

Don't be afraid to call them out.

There will be suitable feminism books ad they get older too.

@YellowphantGrey There we are, a perfect example of it. They are not all making the same objection.

I honestly think all men would commit rape if they had the opportunity and knew they would get away with it.

Do you honestly not understand, that the post is about male violence…..
It’s not difficult to comprehend, surely?

I am not sure that the OP is about male violence at all.

No of course not. My point is it is not ALWAYS MEN and people may think that’s just a boring technicality and it’s fine to say it’s always men, but this is both factually incorrect, offensive, divisive, and unnecessary .

every time we say it’s always men we minimise and dismiss the suffering of anybody who has been on the receiving end of abuse by a woman whether that’s neglect, domestic violence, assault all the way up to the more extreme and newsworthy cases. Female abuse really isn’t as rare as people think, and this whole narrative that it’s always men just doesn’t help anything or anyone.

I believe to get to the truth, we need to be accurate in our language

I am saying this as someone who has been the victim of both male and female abuse, on a thread which was started by somebody talking about humans, being terrible and immediately got jumped on by people saying it’s always men

I think it's framed in a very jarring way. The idea that anyone could think about all those different men prepared to rape a drugged woman in her sleep, and not think the sex of the "humans" has anything to do with it, is odd.

It is desperately sad that the best thing a woman, any woman, can do to keep herself safe, is to stay single.

Yes. Or be a lesbian I suppose.

A man drugged his elderly wife (and his female child too), and other men raped her.

Where are the female perpetrators if this is a "human" problem?

A frightening thought.