About boyfriend visiting a quaker house?

[Celia24]

We've been together for a year. When we met and religion came up I told him I was atheist and asked his views he said he was agnostic but didn't actively believe or practice.

Last week, the topic came up again casually and he suggested he was spiritual although didn't fully commit to saying he believed in God. He also said he didn't really agree with atheism as it was too severe.

Then while in London this week he visited a quaker house in an amazing building he came across! He joked he didn't know they even still existed and mentioned 'you'd have no need for one as an atheist'.

I'll be honest, he has never told me if he was religious in any way and I feel a bit annoyed by this. I want to have children and I don't want to raise them in a faith because that isnt my belief though I respect others.

It's clear that this conversation has made you realise that your atheism is a very deep-rooted part of you, and it's one that you are protective and defensive of. It might well be your deal-breaker.

You have only been together a year. You have learnt relatively early that this might be a fundamental point of incompatibility. Better to know it now than ten years down the line when you are married and have children.

That would be raising them agnostic - which is what her DP is.

She wants to raise them as atheists - that absolutely no God exists.

She is imposing her views by raising them strictly atheists (her DP can’t even explore his own beliefs) which is no different than raising them strictly Christian and not allowing them to explore other beliefs.

Yes, his comments were dismissive of atheism. However, it doesn't sound like you are open to discussion of different views either. Both of you sound quite inflexible in your views, and it might be worth bearing in mind that both atheism and religion are belief systems that people can get very entrenched in. You seem to both be very attached to the idea that your respective positions are the right ones and the other is wrong.

You seem to have some very absolutist and blanket views about all faiths/religions and the fact that you are very firm about not wanting your children "raised in a faith" is not suggesting openness to discussion. Your stance and some of the things you have said on this thread also suggests you are not very tolerant of the beliefs of others, perhaps because you do not actually know very much about how people of different faiths, religions and denominations live and practice.

I went to a Quaker school, although I had Catholic parents. Many of my friends' parents were Quakers. One of the major principles of Quakerism is allowing children to find their own path. Yes, children may be raised in line with Quaker principles, but this is no different to any parent, religious or otherwise, raising their kids in line with their own beliefs and values. Quakers are actually advised against pushing their children towards any faith, and you can't actually formally become a Quaker until you're 16. I didn't have anything to do with Quakerism for many years after leaving school and returned to it later. It's a personal belief system, my children have been to children's meetings a few times (essentially a play group where they might talk about stuff like kindness, tolerance, inclusion) but they have never been raised with any religious identity.

I'm not saying this to try to "defend" my own faith, but to educate and challenge your assumptions about people who have a faith, how they raise their children and what that means. This will look very different between religions, denominations and families.

Ultimately you and your boyfriend have to work out if your belief systems are compatible, and if there is any room for compromise and understanding if they are different. They may not be, but you may also meet someone who has similar beliefs to you now, but changes later. Many people turn to religion or return to it when their lives hit crisis points, illness, bereavement, etc. Sometimes those things make religious people lose their faith too.

Telling one’s DC one’s views about one’s religious beliefs (or not believing) isn’t ‘closed minded’ per se.

Chocolate as we know it today wouldn’t exist without Quakers, so they’re ok in my book.

My DH is a huge atheist, I’m mainly agnostic but with bouts of wondering. When we’re on holiday some of our favourite places to visit are ruined Abbeys, old graveyards, cathedrals etc. They can be beautiful and peaceful places. You don’t have to be religious to appreciate them or to take a few moments to reflect whilst there.

😁🍫

Agreed. I don't think it even matters whether OP is being objectively unreasonable or not. If it's a deal breaker it's a deal breaker.

But how on earth would you stop any future children from having a faith? That's not up to you

One of my friends who has absolutely no belief whatsoever and is as atheist as they come, has a son who converted to the RC church and is now a priest. What would you do in this situation, cut him off?

Personally, I think YABVU and very controlling

Parents ‘tell their kids what to think’ from the very first minute out of the womb. Language, values, behaviour - the child soaks it all up. You can’t avoid it.

And I hate to tell you, but children have an innate spirituality because they’re curious about the themselves and the world and the meaning of it all. There is a difference between finding meaning in the big questions of life, and accepting something bigger than ourselves without being ‘religious’.

I think your boyfriend is just exploring his own spirituality and I don’t know why you would want to stifle that?

You can't decide whether your children have a faith or not; you have no idea how they will grow up, what views they may have. Hopefully, a little more wisdom and tolerance than their mother.

You sound incredibly controlling. He said he was agnostic, this is his inner life and you have no right to try to interfere with it developing. Has he actually said he wants to 'raise children in a faith'?

And I hate to tell you, but children have an innate spirituality because they’re curious about the themselves and the world and the meaning of it all.

I wouldn't remotely describe that curiosity as 'spirituality'.

And you need to think if you're happy that your partner - if you have children together - might be able to be honest about his agnosticism - or if he has become a Quaker - his beliefs that way. If you don't want to tell kids what to think why do you want to tell your partner what to think?

He said he was agnostic, not atheist. Maybe check you understand the difference?

Exactly- you dont have to "teach" them in order for them to pick up on what you believe or dont believe, its obvious in everything you do, your body language, your speech, your interactions with others etc

My parents didnt "teach" me how they felt on various topics but I knew exactly how they felt about it as a child because I interpreted the things I've mentioned above, it was very, very obvious even without them telling me specifically.

I wonder how you'll feel if your future children do end up with faith based beliefs? You seem very upset about your partner merely going to a Quaker building and thats literally just a visit, its not like he's trying to "convert" you

Of course you learn what your parents believe, but that doesn't mean YOU have to believe it.

I'm an atheist.
I have attended evensong at many cathedrals, because I'm also cheap and it's a free way to see a beautiful piece of human engineering and hear beautiful singing. No danger of conversion here. But if I did I'd expect that to be respected.
I wouldn't expect someone to be chippy about my personal beliefs - the snidey-ness is what I'd worry about with your partner.

You sound very controlling. You don’t have any right to control what he, nor any hypothetical children you might have, either believe or don’t believe. It’s a personal thing.

His comment wasn’t snide, it was factual. YABVU.

I was raised Quaker. You don't even really need to believe in God, it's very chill. It is more of a spiritual thing and everyone is welcome to believe what they want. Your OH is entitled to his own beliefs and also to change his mind, as you are.

I read somewhere that at Quaker meetings, the congregation just sit quietly.

I don’t know how true that is, but it sounds very calming and peaceful.

Many on this thread should...'agnostic' has several different meanings of course.
You can be an agnostic and an atheist.

Rationally you can't 100% disprove the existence of some sort of deity - so you're agnostic.
But you can assess the evidence and find that the probability is low, and the probability of any of the specific gods of the various religions is vanishingly low.

So, you don't believe in them - atheist.

Of course most people are apatheists who quite reasonably CBA to think about religion in much depth any more than they worry about many other aspects of culture.

It's funny because the OP talks about atheism being integral to her identity.

Identity politics is something relatively new. Peojust 'were' in a sense before and there's been a lot of talk about how identity politics is the new religion with the same ideas about 'finding yourself'.

You’re overreacting. I’m not religious but I love cathedrals and will look inside wherever I get the chance.

And two of my best friends are Quakers and a nicer more tolerant couple you couldn’t hope to meet. If he is going to get a religion he could do a lot worse than the Quakers.

Yes it is. Someone can get up and speak if they feel like it, but from what my Quaker friends (attending different meetings) say, that may not happen for weeks at a time.

I agree with a pp that there seem to be a significant proportion of Quakers whom if not actually atheist, simply bothered by the divinity of Jesus etc, and are more invested in social justice. I had one former colleague, an elderly linguistician, who was continually appearing in court in his wheelchair for being on demos against British arms sales, blocking roads etc.