About boyfriend visiting a quaker house?

[Celia24]

We've been together for a year. When we met and religion came up I told him I was atheist and asked his views he said he was agnostic but didn't actively believe or practice.

Last week, the topic came up again casually and he suggested he was spiritual although didn't fully commit to saying he believed in God. He also said he didn't really agree with atheism as it was too severe.

Then while in London this week he visited a quaker house in an amazing building he came across! He joked he didn't know they even still existed and mentioned 'you'd have no need for one as an atheist'.

I'll be honest, he has never told me if he was religious in any way and I feel a bit annoyed by this. I want to have children and I don't want to raise them in a faith because that isnt my belief though I respect others.

This.

He was never an atheist. Means he is likely to be more open to exploring and changing his mind one way or another.

You clearly have strong feelings on atheism, so if this is a deal breaker you need to cut your losses now.

Just talk to him.

(any mention of children and how he wants to raise them, is most likely to mean his beliefs are not something that's going to concern you)

Yes that’s what I got from reading your post. I don’t think he’s the right person for values and not a nice person either.

Nothing ‘closed-minded’ about atheism. You don’t believe in something for which there is zero evidence, and whose structures are obviously compounded out of a fear of death and a desire to impose some form of ‘order’ in times where the rule of law wasn’t so strong. That sounds like basic common sense.

However, this seems to have taken on a new importance, given that you knew he was agnostic. If you’re squabbling a lot, having just moved in together, is this just not working any more? Or too soon to tell?

YABU.

My husband is a fervant atheist. It doesn't stop him enjoying interesting buildings or having curiosity about what other people believe.

People change. When I met my husband I was an atheist. We married in a registry office. After I had our first child I became a Christian and later a Catholic and attended mass regularly and played an active part in the Church.

Now I’m agnostic 🤷‍♀️

I’m going to go against the grain, I’m understanding where you’re coming from on this one OP.

A lot of people have said and rightly so that you can go to a historical religious building - Quaker in this instance not for religious reasons but to enjoy the building and its history. With that in mind and the comment he has made “You’d have no need for one as an atheist” points that in his view this is in fact a statement made on purely a religious aspect because he’s completely disregarded the fact that you may enjoy it for any other reason mentioned above. The wording is odd, it does sound judgemental on his part like he considers himself perhaps more morally superior because he is more open to the idea of God/ religion whereas you are not. He has said you have no need to go there because you don’t believe in God, surely he means as he’s not an Atheist therefore has some feelings towards a God being in existence that he has that right whereas you don’t? Why would he say that if he wasn’t considering it in any way shape or form? If it were simply just the fact that you didn’t believe in God then he wouldn’t have said it (IMO) because he knows you well enough to know that it doesn’t need to be said just for your benefit. This is purely for his own benefit that he has made that statement my guess is that he’s open to exploring it.

I think you are indeed getting a hard time and people are purposefully going out of their way to be obtuse and misinterpret what you’re saying. For example I went to a C of E school where obviously Christianity is strongly demonstrated. We had assemblies, went to church for religious holidays with school but I haven’t been since and do not have plans to practice a certain religion. I wouldn’t even if I did that it would be Christianity if I even did. I don’t even really think about God too much on a daily basis and I’m not even convinced he exists. I think to me I’d like to be able to believe a God type being exists purely because I find it comforting to think that one day I may see my loved ones who have passed again in an afterlife. I wouldn’t completely rule it out 100% even if I would 95% if that makes sense. To other people that may sound ridiculous but they don’t have the licence to police my feelings as much as I don’t theirs about their religious beliefs.

I know that on the balance of probability that’s very unlikely to be the case but if someone gave me evidence that proved otherwise I may be more inclined to follow a faith. Getting to the point, that’s what agnostic means to me. It will mean different things to different people just as religion and people’s interpretation of their religious teachings will mean to them. I will never in my mind follow a religion but I’m not wholeheartedly against the idea that there may be a God type spirit as a higher power that exists but not necessarily as it’s set out in bible. From my admittedly poor understanding being an Atheist means that you have no doubt in your mind that a God of any form exists? From all the agnostic people I know, they follow along the same thought lines as me as being open to the idea but wouldn’t openly practice or commit to a faith. I don’t think if your experiences are similar to mine that you’re so unreasonable to think the way that you do about what he has said.

As I said previously, I think your partner may be open to the idea of following a faith or at least exploring and so if you are not willing to bring your children at least loosely around a religion (not that you’re wrong at all for this) then you may need to reconsider if this person is someone you may want to have children with. A year in terms of length of a relationship isn’t very long at all but it is long enough to gauge a persons feelings towards certain subjects and only you know your partner not us and if you feel like he has dismissed how important it is for your children to be brought up in a no faith family then you should really take the steps to have a conversation with with regards to the future.

Good luck.

I made the journey from somewhat intolerant atheist to 'Quaker attender' (ie not an actual Quaker but someone who irregularly attends meetings and finds them meaningful.
For me it was partly a realisation that I had misunderstood something (or a range of things) about religion. I still don't believe in God, and in that sense am still an atheist. But I have a much broader understanding of what religion is. It doesn't have to be a matter of beliefs: As the Quaker 'Advices and Queries' says "Christianity is not a notion but a way."
Quakers believe all sorts, from traditional Christianity, to Buddhism, to atheism and humanism. What they share in common is a commitment to certain 'procedural' values which develop a deeply reflective and exploratory attitude to the fundamental questions to which religion is orientated (eg "What the heck is this all about - being a conscious entity in a material universe?! That's a bit flipping weird. How do I live this life?)
One of the central requirements (expressed in deist language because of Quakerism's historical routes but capable of being interpreted in a secular way ) is to respect "that of God" in everyone. That calls for something very deep, deeper than tolerance - a willingness to enter into others mindsets and travel with them.
So despite the fact that every Quaker tends to have rather strong viewpoints of their own, they are utterly nurturing of diverse and contrary beliefs. So I do think that the presence of a Quaker in a non-religious household can be a lovely thing for every member of the household - so long as the non-religious members feel able to begin to consider letting go of some of the anger and hurt that more intolerant forms of religion may have generated in them

Because part of the reason I'm not religious is I don't believe in telling kids what to think from the off.

Can you not see the irony in this?
You sound intolerant and narrow minded. What are you scared of?

Except the strength of your feelings on this is at a level of ferver that's quasi-religious.

I agree. Your beliefes aren't just atheist, they are anti religion

I suspect those calling you unreasonable may have a faith.

Wrong @CatCaretaker
I don't have a faith. I'm not religious at all, but I am not closed minded.

It sounds like the OP and her boyfriend are incompatible, and they need to break up, so each of them can find someone who aligns more with their beliefs.

Having being raised as a Christian, I now feel precisely zero need for religion (and certainly not for conspiracy theories ffs... I value rationality and evidence as do many atheists and agnostics!) but do still miss the ready-made community

I could have written your post as well @ErrolTheDragon
When I moved to the area I joined the local church and was made to feel very welcome. I no longer go to church, but members of the congregation still make me feel welcome at community events.

Not sure you can say being atheist is closed minded. It is a well considered position. These statements are just like saying Catholics are closed minded because they are open to following Islam. As Ricky Gervais said there have been thousands of Gods in human history, atheists just believe one more doesn't exist.

That building in Euston Road is something else. Run away! He will in the end find himself a religious person, I have seen it happen before. Maybe not now, in a couple of years, but by then it will be heart break and so much time wasted for you both. If he is religious but does not offer marriage, he is using you until his 'ideal person' comes along. This is not nice.

I totally agree. I taught in a Quaker school for many years but wasn’t a Quaker myself. I didn’t agree with all aspects of Quakerism but personally believed it helped to create a supportive and accepting environment for many students.

She never said was going to try to control their thoughts. She doesn't want them raised with a faith (which would be controlling their thoughts). She has already said that she is happy for them to make their own minds up.

Compromise.

If he wants to join a church, tell him to join the Church of England.
The Archbishop Of Canterbury doesn't really believe in God and it's mostly just a woke political organisation nowadays.

They'll welcome him, as droves are leaving to join other religions. He can join some of their silly campaigns, most of which have nothing to do with God-
He'll be happy because he will have joined a church and you'll be happy knowing it has nothing to do with religion.

Hyperbolic nonsense.

Overthinking it A LOT
And nit-picking

Maybe @Celia24 is looking for a way out of the relationship?

I think it's a little bit from column A, a little bit from column B.

But ultimately, if you feel that strongly about the issue then you're going to maximise your chances of something like this never coming up by limiting yourself to avowed atheists. Obviously people can always change, but there's nothing you can do about that. Your DP is evidently an agnostic of the questioning and searching variety, rather than someone who doesn't know if they believe in God and doesn't want to spend any time interrogating the issue further. If you want to pursue the relationship then you're going to have to find a way to be ok with this.

Ah well that’s a matter of debate isn’t it? Is absence of belief in gods the same as belief in the absence of gods? Clearly your position is that it isn’t. But when that position is held as strongly and emphatically as you appear to hold it, I’m not so sure.

I don't see any irony at all in the first statement, it's the opposite of narrow minded.

I was in St Peter’s Basilica last week. Pretty sure I haven’t had a relapse of Catholicism.

I am sad for you if as a fellow atheist you don’t get any intrigue from visiting religious buildings. I love a good church.

and to be honest, he’s already told you he’s not atheist, and he doesn’t need to be. As long as you don’t interfere with each others faith that’s fine. I get the point about children but ultimately your children will be sentient beings and have their own exposure.

in our household we have:
one lapsed Catholic atheist (me)
one cultural Muslim who I don’t think has ever been in a mosque but who has more spirituality than me (DH)
one committed atheist who loved the blingy churches in Rome (DS1)
and one curious Christian (DS2)

you need to be way more respectful

Respectfully OP the ironic thing here is you’d still be raising them on a strong belief in atheism… it’s a belief in itself isn’t it?

I think a lot of poster should cut the op some slack...she sounds quite young, not everyone has reached a considered understanding of their philosophical positions till they're older. There's plenty on this thread who don't seem to understand what agnosticism means (tbf it can mean quite a few different things).

What??! Are you getting Quakerism mixed up with the moonies or some such? Do you even know anything at all about what Quakerism is?
Agree with you about the building though. It's lovely.

Fair enough @RampantIvy but I don't think the OP has said anything that indicates closed-mindedness. She was upset at the comment her partner made, not his visit to the building. She has also indicated that any future children will be free to make their own minds up.

She was under the impression - having discussed the subject with her partner in the past - that he was on the same page in terms of religious beliefs being imposed on children, including things like going to weekly services. Now her partner has started making sarcastic comments about it, and she is justifiably upset that what he had previously indicated were their shared views on this, don't seem to be.

I wonder what it is about you that assumes the father of your children would have more influence over your children's religious beliefs than you would?