About boyfriend visiting a quaker house?

[Celia24]

We've been together for a year. When we met and religion came up I told him I was atheist and asked his views he said he was agnostic but didn't actively believe or practice.

Last week, the topic came up again casually and he suggested he was spiritual although didn't fully commit to saying he believed in God. He also said he didn't really agree with atheism as it was too severe.

Then while in London this week he visited a quaker house in an amazing building he came across! He joked he didn't know they even still existed and mentioned 'you'd have no need for one as an atheist'.

I'll be honest, he has never told me if he was religious in any way and I feel a bit annoyed by this. I want to have children and I don't want to raise them in a faith because that isnt my belief though I respect others.

Wtf? The poster is totally ok.

You sound like trying to belittle them and put them in their place just for providing a valid alternative.

Btw, it must be a very sad life, to be religious only because you are too scared to live the on your own without invented deities and too scared they might punish you for not guessing their wishes.

Hmmm, sorry could you say that again - i am struggling to understand what you are saying? Sorry about that.

Well this is my point - If there is no afterlife, then no, it isn't ever going to be "clear" because there will never be anyone in any position to actually witness or document that fact, due to being dead and non-existent.

You do realise that just labelling everyone with a different viewpoint to you as “Irritating and agitated” doesn’t actually make them so.

You’ve already professed that you’ve “found” ie. labelled all Atheists “Angry, irritated and agitated” which is a huge generalisation to pin to one group of thousands of people. So perhaps it may be time consider that your skewed viewpoint is clouding your judgement when people are offering their own viewpoints instead of falsely accusing people of behaving in a way that they’re in fact not.

Really?

Have you missed all those people who think that because their religion doesn't allow them to have an abortion, noone should be allowed to have one?
Have you missed how Afghan women aren't allowed to be heard on the street, because their religion apparently see it as sinful?
Have you heard about "in the name of faith" run atrocities like Magdalene's laundries?

So calm and open minded people.

Yep. So it would become clear at the time of hitting our expiry date, there either will be or won't be? The only person that will know will be yourself if there is an afterlife, and if there isn't then no one will know - correct?

Unless the man is converting and desperately trying to make you a quaker as well this is ridiculous.

But if there is, it's likely all your loved ones who predeceased you will be there, and you'll all know about it?

The only people who don't know are the living. Everyone else either knows or there isn't one so they've just ceased.

Well said.

Yes, exactly. That's totally true - i had missed that point of those already gone - thank you.

Possibly not. Even if there is some sort of afterlife it may be impossible to perceive it without your body. How can you ever know anything without a brain? You could well be correct yet never know it!

Theoretically, yes.

Seems to me there are three possibilities -

1. There is an afterlife, and it's open to all regardless of what they believe, or whether they even believe at all, in which case, hooray! joy all around!, however this renders belief/faith/religion completely unnecessary for the purpose of ensuring entry.
2. There is an afterlife, but entry criterion is conditional, in which case the majority of us are screwed in any case, including those who believe but chose the wrong faith/beliefs/deities to worship and not just those who don't believe.
3. There is no afterlife, in which case none of us are ever going to find out about that, because we'll be in a state of non-existence. Once we die, there is not going to be some sort of limbo state that gives us a moment to come to grips with the fact that is is, game over. You are dead, and have simply ceased to be. This is why there is absolutely nothing to fear about the prospect of no afterlife, i.e. you aren't going to be sitting around somewhere thinking to yourself "aww shite, I'm dead, and I wish I was alive again because this sucks", because, again, you don't exist, and non-existent things can't postulate their own existence.

All in all, seems there's nothing to lose in being religious, but on the other hand, it's highly likely it's totally immaterial in any case.

Isn't there something about a soul?

Which part don't you understand?

The one that it seems you are trying to belittle people and label them as angry? You know you are.

Or you don't understand the part, which reacts to your previous post, the one Balmy reacted to before you so kindly labelled her as angry? You suggested there that people should want for their children to have faith, because there might be some regrets in future if H&H were to exist.

And to that I say - it must be sad to not have a courage to live a good life based on your own decisions and rather submit to a blackmail (of a potential god who says "worship me or I'll make your afterlife a hell").

Ok. I've never heard the soul has a body or a mind, in fact I've never really heard a reasonable explanation of what it is.

Tell me what the soul is and what it's properties are and how to find it and I'll tell you whether I think it might be capable of thought.

"awww shite I'm dead" made me chuckle.
I think the whole evolution thing screws it all up for me. But that's another conversation.

Souls? The essence of a person?

I don't have any particular beliefs but I think there's more to people than the biology.

What is a a soul? what is the essence of a person? I know if you boil up plants you can make essence, so all I'm thinking of now is like a concentrated human stock, will that be able to perceive an afterlife or just make a good long pig gravy?

Yes, there's also the Chemistry and Physics.

From google:

• The immaterial essence of a person: In many religions and philosophies, the soul is the non-material aspect of a person that includes their identity, personality, and memories. Some believe the soul is immortal and can survive physical death.
• The moral and emotional nature of a person: The soul can also refer to the moral or emotional nature of a person.

Do you know what agnostic means? He’s told you right from the start what his beliefs are, and his behaviour is entirely consistent.

I tend to view my agnosticism as a belief in infinite unknowable possibilities. Spirituality has at times comforted me, but I cannot say I believe in an omnipotent presence or intelligent design. There’s energy out there, there are beautiful religious buildings that I would pay good money to spend some time in, there are people and faiths and good and bad. The universe is so much bigger than me or my comprehension, who am I to say what does or does not exist?! I am a speck. I do however believe in the goodness of people.

My understanding of Quakerism is that they're a bit like the Unitarians - isn't it all about freedom to find your own path and own spirituality and not about believing one set creed? I pretty sure you can be atheist/ humanist and Quaker or Unitarian.

If it is immaterial it seems to me it is indistinguishable from something that doesn't exist so unless you have any evidence it exists, I think it's best to assume it doesn't.

We know where are thoughts and memories are kept, in our brains, our personalities too, without a brain you have none of these things. Because if our personalities are kept in our souls, why do they change when we damage our brain? edit to add: this also goes for our morals and emotional nature, these can also both change if our brains are damaged.

You sound a little bit controlling.

He's allowed to have thoughts, an open mind, and to pursue happiness or spiritual growth.

I think that many atheists are just as dogmatic (if not more so) than some devoutly religious people. He sounds more open minded than you are and I don’t think he will be happy in this relationship.

Ok, so the first definition says that immortal soul is something many religions believe in. So in the "No God" scenario -> no afterlife -> no soul to take notice -> no-one is the wiser.

The second definition, emotional nature of the person can happily die with the body and mind, no reason to stay behind and observe anything.