About boyfriend visiting a quaker house?

[Celia24]

We've been together for a year. When we met and religion came up I told him I was atheist and asked his views he said he was agnostic but didn't actively believe or practice.

Last week, the topic came up again casually and he suggested he was spiritual although didn't fully commit to saying he believed in God. He also said he didn't really agree with atheism as it was too severe.

Then while in London this week he visited a quaker house in an amazing building he came across! He joked he didn't know they even still existed and mentioned 'you'd have no need for one as an atheist'.

I'll be honest, he has never told me if he was religious in any way and I feel a bit annoyed by this. I want to have children and I don't want to raise them in a faith because that isnt my belief though I respect others.

What if you chose the wrong religion? Every day you're making god angrier. What if it was a test and by ignoring all evidence pointing towards there being no god, you failed? Personally I don't want my children to believe in things without evidence because it makes them vulnerable to believing other things without evidence.

Oh and if I'm right, I won't find there's no heaven and hell, I'll be dead! But if there is I will have no regrets. I have never seen a reason to believe in any god and find most of them to be insecure, immoral thugs and I have no interest in bowing to them. If it truly is a loving being it will judge me on my thoughts and actions, not my ability to suspend critical thinking.

What if you chose the wrong religion? Every day you're making god angrier. What if it was a test and by ignoring all evidence pointing towards there being no god, you failed? Personally I don't want my children to believe in things without evidence because it makes them vulnerable to believing other things without evidence.

Quite so. 'Pascals wager' really doesn't work!

You sound very angry, irritated and agitated. Please take a step back and relax a little.

Personally I don't want my children to believe in things without evidence because it makes them vulnerable to believing other things without evidence.

There is a famous quote, which sometimes seems to have a germ of truth.

When people choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing. They then become capable of believing in anything.

That is the problem with the written word, it doesn't always have an obvious tone so we interpret it with a lot of our own bias, a lot like religion! Thank you for your concern but I am perfectly relaxed thank you.

And more than a germ of being trite bollocks tbh.

There are plenty of people who believe in god who also believe in various sorts of nonsense, unscientific positions (anti vax, climate change deniers etc...not notably absent from the Bible Belt).

@PeppyAquaPoet oh so there is a huuuge back story? I did say to @Celia24 that the religion issue is a red herring and that she needs to figure out why is is so angry and whether she wants to be with him.
@Celia24 if you are the poster @PeppyAquaPoet is referring to, please break up with him, heal then start afresh. You deserve so much better. Rather than being concerned with your future kids having a faith (religion) you should focus on what type of relationships you will model for them. I suggest loving, respectful, supportive

The atheists I've met throughout my life have been pushier, angrier, more dogmatic and more demeaning than anyone from any organised religion. Just my observation.

OP is another example of this - can't just believe what she believes and let her partner explore his beliefs. Can't countenance raising children who are open minded to both mum and dad's beliefs and will make choices for themselves.

Really? People should believe in something demonstrably fabricated throughout history, which has an appalling track record for human rights abuses in the past and currently, in order to hedge their bets in an afterlife for which there is absolutely no evidence.

I don't mean that there is no higher power, there may be, but all of the trappings that go with faith in any particular religion must be fully bought into, just in case? Which religion do you chose (because if you chose the 'wrong' one you're going to hell anwyay) and how much do you buy into your chosen faith? As others have pointed out, there are very problematic sets of behaviours that you should espouse, depending on the religion embraced.

@Celia24 As an atheist, you have a definite belief that no god or gods exist and they are man-made inventions. Your boyfriend, on the other hand, as an agnostic, in plain English, 'doesn't know and can't ever know'. An agnostic believes that it is impossible to know whether God/Gods exist - but does not deny either, that God(s) may exist

I think he meant his comments on atheism because he thinks they leave no option for considering something else

So the comment which upset you is a 100% true statement, by the very definition of Atheism. It doesn't sound sarcastic to me. He was just telling the truth. Nothing sarcastic about it.

You are both entitled to believe what you believe, but from your posts, you come across as not just believing what you believe, but wanting everyone else to believe what you do. It's a difficult one, but it is possible to have our own beliefs and accept that others may feel differently, without judging them for it?

If the bringing up of any future children as atheists themselves is so important to you, then you need to find someone who feels the way you do and not this BF. He will always be happy to visit churches or Quaker Houses or similar, because he has an open mind about it all, whereas ( again by definition) you have no doubt at all.

I do find the same exactly - those that profess atheism seem to be short tempered, irritable and have an agitated attitude. Those that profess to be believers seem to be softer and more peaceful. I don't know why there is a difference and don't want to make generalisations - just as an outside observer sitting on the fence watching.

Atheism means without God.

I always describe myself as an atheist. My husband describes himself as agnostic. His view is that, as a scientist, he cannot know whether or not there is a God but can only evaluate the evidence. Atheism is not an "absence of belief" but a belief as much as any form of theism.

@bazoom ,@SensorySensai - a question might be how, in real life, you have any idea if someone is an atheist or a believer? With the latter, you're likely to know because of things they do - a casual mention of going to church, for instance.
Whereas atheists don't have a club, you don't have need to mention a thing you don't believe in. So you're only likely to realise someone is an atheist if some specific issue comes up.
You may not be really comparing like with like?

@Celia24 Atheism is not just the absence of belief I am sorry. It is a definite point of view that there is no God/Gods. Atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist

Agnostics 'do not know' they are open to their being a God/Gods or not

That's true to an extent. But I find the atheists I've met seem to wear it as a badge of honour. Of being better, smarter, more discerning than everyone else. It always comes up! Bit like veganism - you could say how would you ever know what someone ate unless they ordered a juicy steak right in front of you, but somehow these things do come up...

But I find the atheists I've met seem to wear it as a badge of honour. Of being better, smarter, more discerning than everyone else. It always comes up!

But how on earth would you know you're not meeting lots of atheists who dont mention it? I rarely would in normal social interactions, any more than I'd mention that I'm not into football.

Sorry for the pedantry, but if there is no heaven or hell, and someone who has lived life in their chosen faith passes etc etc, then they are not going to "find out" anything because they'll be dead, non-existent, and as such have no cognitive capacity or awareness to find out anything about anything whatsoever.

Secondly, suppose for a moment there is a H/H. How is anyone of faith supposed to be sure they are of the correct faith to qualify? What happens to all the Christians (for arguments sake) if it turns out the afterlife is exclusive to Hindus?

It's as much a point of view as the absence of belief in anything else which doesn't exist. Nobody defines themselves by their absence of belief in fairies or unicorns or anything else that is instantly recognisable but that nobody (or very few) actually believe in.

We just happen to have a name for those who have an absence of belief in God. We don't have a name for all those others. The only people who define themselves by their belief in a God are those who subscribe to one belief system of another.

As an atheist I never think about the fact that there is no God unless someone talks about their faith in one. It doesn't define my thinking in any way at all.

I guess one day it'll all be clear. Until then we just get living our lives to the best of our ability.

I agree that a simple visit shouldn't be a big deal. I read the OP's post in a way that she feels this topic has emerged in their relationship now around the visit, comments, and maybe more small things. Until now she felt they were on a path to be a happy god-free family (many agnostics are quite uninterested in spiritual stuff), but now she isn't sure about his position and is gathering her thoughts before the discussion.

Btw, why should one parent's wish (or "right") to raise children in prayers take precedence over the other parent's wish (or right) to protect the child from religious induction (at least at home)? Especially if the adults originally agree on a gods-free way.

If you're correct that some atheists aren't mentioning their atheism then it stands to reason that some religious people also aren't mentioning their religion. After all, having a religion can draw a lot of negativity these days. In that case, we can still notice things about those who do.

This is just silly. There are many many believers who act in ways far far beyond being 'short tempered, irritable and agitated' in the name of their faith.

Visiting a Quaker meeting house doesn’t make him a Quaker.

But also, it’s not inconsistent to be agnostic and a Quaker. Many are. Some believe in god fully and see it as a branch of Christianity but others don’t.

I think as @SensorySensai says, it must be the most outspoken ones that come across as the ones with attitudes. And as mentioned previously as a casual bystander its just interesting to observe. @ErrolTheDragon The findings tend to be with people that you happen to be in the same circles as, so work/social, so not like you bump into someone in the street and wow you are a this or that. Just an interesting observation and interesting that someone else has commented the same thing
Heyho, time to move on from this.

I feel like agnostic is quite a logical place to be, seeing as we can never truly know one way or the other! I don’t mean the specifics of any religion, many of which are disprovable, just whether or not there’s some kind of deity/ afterlife / “something greater than ourselves”