About boyfriend visiting a quaker house?

[Celia24]

We've been together for a year. When we met and religion came up I told him I was atheist and asked his views he said he was agnostic but didn't actively believe or practice.

Last week, the topic came up again casually and he suggested he was spiritual although didn't fully commit to saying he believed in God. He also said he didn't really agree with atheism as it was too severe.

Then while in London this week he visited a quaker house in an amazing building he came across! He joked he didn't know they even still existed and mentioned 'you'd have no need for one as an atheist'.

I'll be honest, he has never told me if he was religious in any way and I feel a bit annoyed by this. I want to have children and I don't want to raise them in a faith because that isnt my belief though I respect others.

And crucially not all Quakers have a religious faith, but are nontheist Quakers.
There are Meeting houses all around the country, still. I know nontheists, and Quakers from C of E, Catholic and Buddhist backgrounds.

I personally think knowing about & understanding people's faiths is a really good thing. Doesn't mean you have to share those beliefs, but there's certainly nothing wrong with being interested in the history and practice of different faiths, and understanding how it underpins personal and societal traditions and behaviours. Knowledge is power, and all that.

That's pretty common. And vice versa. They are have much more in common in terms of authoritarian themes than many realise. Hence my comments about mirroring.

YABU- you met someone who is agnostic eg they believe in a creator of some sort but aren’t sure on specifics.

you dated someone with agnostic beliefs which you ‘respect’ as long as they don’t explore them by visiting religious institutions? Also I’d make quips if I felt an atheist was commenting/judging my visits to places.

if you want your children raised with no faith you need to marry an atheist. I’d suggest breaking up. This person has been honest from the start. You shouldn’t try to change them or control how religious or not they are with their agnostic ways.

Your future kids might choose to follow a faith anyway so all you can really control is your own belief.

I'm Quaker, and I would say that we are a very non-pushy denomination - one of our advices says "Let your life speak", and most of us leave it at that unless asked directly about what Quakers believe. I would love to be remembered as@CloudyAgain remembers her MIL. So even if your DP were drawn to Quakers, I don't think he would be forcing anything on you or your children.

‘I don’t want my children to have a faith’

I dont think you can decide this. I am affirmedly atheist. My children are not raised going to church or with regular religious input BUT - we know plenty of people of different religious - my sister is very Christian, my best friend and her husband are practicing Muslims - so questions arise - they have exposure to all sorts of ideas - we often talk about different people believing in different stories about how the world was created / having different customs etc.

Your children will decide for themselves what they believe.

I think you need to get really curious with yourself about where this anger comes from. Why do you have so much energy about his agnosticism? I can’t see that he’s done anything remotely wrong!

Why wouldn't you want children to have a faith...? If and when we get to the end of lives and die, someone has lived a life of faith and belief in God, they pass and find out there is no heaven or hell then at least they have lived life in their chosen belief and normally as a good law abiding and caring person and will be remembered for this. If there is a heaven or hell then they will be on a win win.
and vice versa. If an atheist lives a life denying God, gets to the end and finds there is no heaven/hell then all good. Now the tricky bit..... IF there is H&H then there's going to be a few regrets 😂

A most interesting thread - like some others who have posted I'm a Quaker. There are plenty of non theist quakers and also people who identify as quakers and a member of another religion. There is no creed Quakers ascribe to.

The glue that brings Quakers of many varied beliefs and tradition together is their testimonies: a life rooted in Simplicity, Peace, Equality, Integrity and Stewardship of the planet. The majority of people who go to Quaker Meetings are 'Attenders' rather than 'Members' and there is never any pressure to become a Member.

In society many people whether atheist or theist respect Quakers for their stance on social issues even if they do not agree with all the specifics. A key Quaker tenet is to see the good in everyone and always to be aware you may be mistaken.

We switched from the Church of England to Quakers 14 years ago when our kids were 6 & 8 and have found quakers provided a great framework for raising children to have confidence to face the complexity of today's world and make their own choices how to live.

Yes, that’s Pascal’s famous wager. However, many of us don’t require the carrot and stick of religion to behave well. I know that religion is a manmade construct, concocted out of a fear of death and an urge to impose order and explain the workd before science did. I behave with consideration and care to others, volunteer and contribute to society, obey the law, try to prioritise peace and justice in my actions, care for the natural world etc etc — even though there’s no ‘eternal reward’. When we die, we just don’t exist any more. In the unlikely event of there being some form of post-death judgement, I will still have lived ethically and with care for others.

Are you saying you wouldn’t be ‘a law-abiding, caring person’ unless you thought God was watching? Don’t you think it’s possible to live well as an atheist?

Kindly, it’s not up to you to decide whether your children have faith or not. It’s up to children to decide for themselves once grown. A more balanced approach is to provide a wide education on all faiths and none and allow a person to make up their own mind.

Learning about other faiths and cultures is important in a diverse society and would go a long way to more understanding and respect. Perhaps you should take a leaf out of your boyfriend’s book?

And to refer to a previous poster, you don’t need to worry about “catching religion”.

I vaguely wonder if the OP is the sort of atheist that gets offended by being invited to a Christening ?

As the offspring of a fervent atheist I can assure you it can take on the the same fixed rigidity, intolerance and control as any devout religious observer, with weird rules and rituals and beliefs just as seemingly random and inexplicable.

I was initially brought up as officially a "Practicing Atheist," double underlined on every document. The extremeness meant it was picked up on and I faced questions everywhere from a very young age.
Actively rejecting religion was an important expected part of life and identity.

Formally excluded from school assembly, RE classes, carol singing/listening, hearing the Sally army band from many streets away, or anything connected to Christmas or Easter. School, society and parent extended this to cover snow covered post boxes, robins, snowflakes, glitter, tinsel, Xmas trees, fluffy chicks, bunnies, chocolate eggs, and a huge host of other things.
Clothing choices dictated by not appearing certain ways. Kneeling forboden. Colored light pooling on the floor through glass must not be played in...
Taught to perceive all external authority as the stupid untrustworthy sheeples from the off. My parent was the only authority in life.
The tip of the iceberg a child can be subjected to under the name of atheist..

The importance of controlling what I did or didn't believe meant the wrong look at the wrong moment or glancing at the wrong thing, could end very badly.
Then adults in school would say they could tell what I was thinking, so I developed practicing 'shielding' my mind and thoughts, appreciation of beauty of many things, and becoming mentally blank and neutral around everyone to mentally survive my fear of both 'sides.' I was just a powerless kid.

My parent was so terrified that their control of me would end if I was 'brainwashed' by religion, that they worked to 'brainwash' me in their non belief.
Ironically I ended up in the 'care' of nuns who wanted to battle 'Satan' for my soul if I had one.

No matter what I thought, believed or didn't, someone had got to me, I could not have or own my own unfucked with thoughts on anything, ever.
Control is control whatever philosophies or words are used to excuse or rationalize it.
NAAALT obviously, but atheism can be no different to any other dogmatic system of beliefs when practiced by controlling individuals.

Agnostic here, both myself and ex were not religious so raised our now 7 yr old without a religion. She has touched on religious education at school and has now asked to go to church.

Regardless of my own beliefs I will still take her and let her choose for herself.

Fellow atheist here. You can bring your children up in a 'no faith' environment, but you can't dictate what beliefs they will follow as they grow up. Similarly, you may start a relationship with someone who is also an atheist, but their views may change over time.

I think religious - or more accurately, spiritual - views have a valuable place in our society. I'm not talking about restrictive fundamentalism, but what I think of a rational belief.

As an atheist, I do believe in transcendence - you only have to look at the universe (as far as we can), or read the mind-boggling theories that come from rational science about the nature of reality to know there is something here that is far beyond our capacity to understand. Religious people call it 'God,' which is a kind of short-circuit as it doesn't explain anything. I just call it wonder. I wouldn't want to be involved with someone who didn't have that capacity to wonder.

Atheists don't really have beliefs, or not around religious concepts. What you report him saying doesn't sound patronising or sarcastic, but don't close your mind to the transcendent. It exists in the world around you, but it doesn't need a god or any other supernatural being. It's part of the wonder that is the universe from the tiniest particle (which I don't think we've found yet) to infinity.

Sorry - no not at all, I didn't mean to come across that way in the slightest - please don't misinterpret or fill in what you see as blanks. You get good and bad in believers or unbelievers.

The above is your theory though and not based on fact. You choose to say religion is a manmade concoction. All I am saying is it is one of those things that will be found out about after we cease to exist on earth. I am not arguing or debating, or even saying where i stand in the whole matter. Just stating that once we pop our clogs we will find out for sure.

This is nothing to do with Quakerism

(although some interesting discussions agree if you're a thoughtful ethical creative person looking for a friendly chat/cup of tea or lunch/community please do look up your local group.

In fact many religious groups like visitors for non-religious chats, check what the vibe is then pop in!).

Sorry OP, is this the same guy you've posted about MULTIPLE times who:

• Makes nasty comments to you to humiliate you ("are you blind?", points out a female colleagues attractive features when you've made him a welcome home dinner....)

• Is flaky with plans and gaslights you on arrangements.

• You tolerate this as he's got a good job (lawyer/professor?) and he's nice to you 90% of the time.

• As you keep coming back for more of his odd behaviour and making excuses for him, he's escalating.

He's abusive and a bully - I expect he specifically engineered the comment in a way to imply you were excluded, it was "his" thing, he'll be building a new friendship group there and you're peripheral.

He's clever and spiteful and he's being nasty in a plausibly deniable way to make you look like the bad guy.

It's not a casual comment, it's not about Religion Vs Atheism, it's about whittling away at your self-esteem and making you insecure.

Whatever your beliefs are (or not) you're fine. He's manipulating you to push your buttons. That's the issue.

A poster said on one of your previous threads after a few months you find this type intriguing as they are hard-to-get, after a year you just feel they are boring, draining, and annoying.

Get rid of him. He's incredibly, incredibly bad news. The good news is you have no children.

And what I’m asking is whether, if you knew for sure that when we die we cease to exist, like animals, and that there was no supernatural entity monitoring our actions, you would live entirely differently?

Because I’m entirely confident in my judgement that religion is a human construct, but it’s not relevant particularly, as I can’t imagine I’d be living much differently were I a believer.

So he’s not fully aligned with you as an atheist; he’s not lied and he is open with you.
I don’t believe in God or any specific religion, I believe in free thinking which gives people the space to explore and grow - this improves lives rather than your ‘with me or against me’ viewpoint.
You can choose to end a relationship for any reason but he’s certainly not duped you; visiting a Quaker meeting house would be an odd deal breaker for me.
In the UK you can bring children up as non believers but they’ll be exposed to religion and different beliefs at school; they too will develop their own minds and I can’t imagine you’d cut them off for doing so?

I didn't realise that OP was talking about Friends house! That is a building open to all, my nhs trust recently used it as a venue for a training event, with attendees from across many religions, who had no issues with being there. It's a beautiful building, with a lovely peaceful courtyard away from the crowds and noise of the area, with no overt religious symbolism.

Maybe visit it yourself before you make assumptions on the type of building it is, and the meaning of visiting it.

It’s not relevant at all. Most self proclaimed ‘good people’ are far from it. Sorry to say.

Both my parents were raised without a faith. Both became born again Christians as young adults. Just because you don't have a faith, doesn't mean any potential future children won't.

I don't want to get drawn into a debate... but i just googled what God won't forgive, and it says shedding innocent blood, and another is murderers don't have eternal life within them. So obviously this doesn't apply to 99.9% of the population but if a murderer/terrorist believed in God and that there was an eternity after we go then he would live his life differently surely?

for the general population going about their daily lives and watching out for each other as is normal there would be most likely no difference?

Spiritual does not equal religion.

I don't want to get drawn into a debate... but i just googled what God won't forgive, and it says shedding innocent blood, and another is murderers don't have eternal life within them. So obviously this doesn't apply to 99.9% of the population but if a murderer/terrorist believed in God and that there was an eternity after we go then he would live his life differently surely?

You sound confused. This is why you need a man someone to explain it to you so you too know who you can happily slaughter without affecting your eternal salvation.

No - the question was how would someone live life differently if they were aware there was or wasn't a God. Simple response was for 99.9% of folks there would be no difference, but if I was in the other category (0.1%) I would live my life differently. I am not confused about anything.

Quakers aren't like other branches of Christianity. I mean they're not all identical to each other of course, but broadly they tend to be v chill, kind to a fault, socially conscious. They welcome people of other faiths and no faith at all into meeting houses. They're completely non hierarchical and the only proselytising you're likely to hear will be about environmental and social causes.