Primary child sat only with non-English speaking children

[evilharpy]

I don't know if IABU so grateful for any opinions.

Daughter is in second to last year of primary and has just gone back to school (we are in Ireland, before anyone says it's too early) and they've been allocated to their table groups. The class is maybe 1/4 ESL children, 3/4 native speakers. She is on one long table with only children who have fairly recently moved here and don't speak much English sitting beside or really anywhere near her, certainly not close enough to talk to or pair up with for activities. Several of them are from the same country so speak each other's language.

Now I have no problem at all with ESL children being sat with or paired up with native speakers, how else are they supposed to learn, and I know the purpose of lessons is not to sit chatting to your friends, but she is worried she will be isolated and that she will end up spending more time helping them than doing her own work. She is very academic, if that's relevant, but is not at all prone to drama or moaning so the fact that she has told me she's worried about it has made me concerned.

WIBU to raise this with the teacher and ask if the tables could be mixed up a bit? Has anyone had a similar experience and it's worked out ok for the child?

I’m shocked by some of the posts on this thread. The logic some are arguing is that if a kid’s new to a school, then other kids shouldn’t have to sit next to them, but should be moved away to sit with their existing clique of friends.

What happened to making new people feel welcome and being friendly?

Of course kids aren’t being expected to teach other kids instead of the teacher. But surely they should make them feel welcome and be friendly, by smiling and chatting in their own language (even if the new kids doesn’t understand). And asking if they need any help. It only takes a few weeks for kids to settle in and start learning a language FFS.

So much for treating others as you’d like to be treated yourself. What happened to kindness?

Ah the toxic kind of "kindness" you mean ? Where (usually women and girls) are expected to swallow down their own anxieties and concerns and allow another person or group to trump her own rights?

Welcoming a new child (especially if they struggle with English or are new to the country - is very basic human kindness that should happen as an absolute essential) extra measures by teachers should be put in place to make sure the student is being bedded in well.

Sitting the OPs daughter on a table of all non English speakers is not "kindness" to her is it? She has some valid reservations on how it may effect her socially and potentially academically.

The two issues are unrelated. Shutting out her concerns as "not kind" is hypocrisy at best

Apologies if I’ve not been clear 🙏. I wasn’t referring to OP at all. I thought her posts were v measured. In my previous reply, I said I could understand how her DD was feeling. I’ve read her posts carefully and her DD isn’t “on a table of all non-English speakers”. It’s a table of 7 with three kids with EFL and 3-4 kids with ESOL. She said two of the kids with ESOL have been there since last year, so presumably understand/speak a fair bit by now. The thing that’s concerning her DD is the kids either side of her have ESOL and are not her usual friends. Of course her DD should tell the teacher if she feels anxious or unhappy. Surely, no one’s expecting her to ‘swallow her concerns’.

It’s some of the other posts.

And it’s not that one child’s needs ‘trumps’ the other. That’s a false dichotomy. Children aren’t in competition. The well-being and learning of all kids in a class matters. As the OP asked for, I have experience of this as both a child and (more recently) as a parent (my DS was in both situations). There’s evidence that grouping by ability does more harm than good and more able kids consolidate their own learning by helping others. Not that kids with ESOL should be presumed to be less academic. Far from it. In fact, IMHO, viewing kids through the lens of their first language, rather than just as kids, isn’t at all helpful. I’m grateful my DS wasn’t viewed like that.

Thanks for all the responses. It's given me a lot to think about. I probably should have been clearer that her concerns seem to be more around the social side than academic, the word she used was "isolated". I don't think she's overly bothered about being sat with her usual friends, last year I think she only had one close friend on her table (who is actually an ESOL child herself although has been here a few years now and her English is great).

When I say two of the kids joined late last year I meant last school year so I think they've only been here since some point earlier this year - not a long time to learn English. My daughter did say they had very little English.

I also should definitely have been clearer that I meant NI rather than ROI, apologies - I was just trying to clarify that we are not in England so our schools start back a bit earlier. They don't move around unless the teacher swaps them for whatever reason. We do have a lunch hall and I think they choose who they sit with.

I think for the moment I'm going to do nothing and see how it pans out. The seating might not be permanent and the teacher might reshuffle them when she gets to know personalities etc. I'll get an update in a couple of weeks and if my daughter is unhappy I'll have a chat to the teacher to let her know, and see what she suggests.

All of this, but also very advanced reading and literacy ability, has been given additional work, reading etc in line with her ability in both schools she has attended, right from the very start, to keep her challenged/interested. Academic ability doesn't only start in secondary.

Someone else on this thread wisely said if they've learnt anything about the years at school, in that school system, now their children are teenagers - that what they've learnt is to speak up, speak loud, be honest with the school team.
I totally agree with that - coming to the long long end of the school system from reception to year 13 there will be many times you need to speak up and be that voice, show your child you are in their corner.
Young children absolutely do not want to upset the teacher or make them cross. They get a fear about it.
Pick and choose the battles, and you will have battles believe me - the bumps in the school road will come your way.
If you can make life easier for your child do it.
As the o p said, she's going to wait a couple of weeks...that's fair to all.
She's got her child's back and she's listening. She's on it. She's watching out.
It's what your mum is for. You're doing a great job O P!

Teacher here. YES, please do nothing for now. Seating does change now and then (or quite regularly jn some classes). You really don't want to be the sort of parent that teachers dread. If things are the same by half-term, do speak to the teacher.

Yes to all of that.

Some children soak up everything a school puts in front of them and come back looking for more. I was very lucky that the school my DCs attended was more than willing to give extra work (and challenging work too, not just busy work) to my DCs who were up for it, and it sounds as if your situation is similar.

If you're going to hold back and not approach the teacher yet, tell your DD your reasons and emphasise that you're open to it if her fears turn out to be justified.

I would be very concerned that the teacher is willing to let her spin her wheels since she's a bit ahead academically, and envisions her role as a support to the other children at the table. If there's any hint of this happening, don't hesitate to contact the teacher.

You really don't want to be the sort of parent that teachers dread

I think she’s just a bit worried about her daughter.

Wow you sound really bitter and hostile. That’s not a good look when term has barely started. Is your mental health OK?

Why wouldn’t she want to be the parent teachers dread?

What happens when a parent is that parent?

@mumedu so if your child comes home in tears everyday after school, feels physically sick at the thought of going each morning because of a situation happening at school, you would expect a parent to seriously not say anything or just suck it up for a term?

You are less open with them and only tell them the bits they want to hear.

You are outrageous.

It hasn't been a term - its literally been a few days. Parents need to teach children resilience and how to cope with less than perfect situations. That's life. That's what they will have to deal with in the workplace and the real world.

Shouldn't you be professional at all times?

@mumedu I realise it hasn't been a term, it was you that mentioned waiting a term before mentioning something!

So do you also believe a child who is constantly being kicked under the table and being constantly disruptive to the same child day in and day out should just put up with it, that's life? Nobody should have to put up with that in the workplace or anywhere for that matter.

Also back to the OP point, where in the workplace would someone generally be in the situation that OP child is?

Also teaching children that they do not have to suffer silently is equally as important!

There is nothing unprofessional about this.

Tbh, you sound like a nightmare parent.

Seated, not sat. Your child should be teaching them furriners correct English.

There needs to be at least one other native English speaker at the table because one of the best ways and most productive ways EAL children learn is by listening to quality discussions from competent English users. If the OPs child is the only one speaking English as their first language then the teacher is missing a huge trick in supporting the EAL childrens learning.

This is emphasising good practice but also a way of approaching the discussion with the class teacher in a positive way.

Defensive much?!

There is everything unprofessional about designating someone as "that parent" and telling parents they mustn't question St Miss.

And proud of it!

Speaking as a teacher who has worked with children who are new to English for many years (and whose own father was new to English) that's not what I'm taking from the comments at all.

In most schools, either a new pupil will be assigned a "buddy" or a group of pupils will be asked to look after them.

The concern in the OP's original post, I thought, was that there was possibly an imbalance in her daughter's group. If this is the case, it won't be good for any of the children in the group.

So far as the kids with ESOL are concerned, they need to be with native speakers for some areas of work (so that English can be modelled for them) and for other pieces of work it's helpful if they can discuss new concepts in their native language.

Similarly, the OP's daughter and others need to have the opportunity to discuss some matters with children at their own level of English. It's a balancing act.

FWIW, as well as my teaching experience and knowing of my dad's experience, I've also had the experience of being a student abroad learning to speak another language.