Primary child sat only with non-English speaking children

[evilharpy]

I don't know if IABU so grateful for any opinions.

Daughter is in second to last year of primary and has just gone back to school (we are in Ireland, before anyone says it's too early) and they've been allocated to their table groups. The class is maybe 1/4 ESL children, 3/4 native speakers. She is on one long table with only children who have fairly recently moved here and don't speak much English sitting beside or really anywhere near her, certainly not close enough to talk to or pair up with for activities. Several of them are from the same country so speak each other's language.

Now I have no problem at all with ESL children being sat with or paired up with native speakers, how else are they supposed to learn, and I know the purpose of lessons is not to sit chatting to your friends, but she is worried she will be isolated and that she will end up spending more time helping them than doing her own work. She is very academic, if that's relevant, but is not at all prone to drama or moaning so the fact that she has told me she's worried about it has made me concerned.

WIBU to raise this with the teacher and ask if the tables could be mixed up a bit? Has anyone had a similar experience and it's worked out ok for the child?

It’s probable that the non-English speakers are working to her ability (or beyond) in maths and written english and that’s the reason. It takes immigrant non-english speaking children about a month to catch up as they can speak English just not UK/Irish English. Then they usually overtake.

I wouldn't necessarily complain but mention to the teacher that DD is a bit worried and you don't want her to feel isolated. That you are sure as teachers there's a plan in place but you just wanted to mention it so teacher is aware

Because that might not be what is best for the OP's daughter.

I’m an EAL teacher and this set up does not sound great practice for anyone. EAL children need to have opportunities to hear and talk with children who are fluent speakers and that can’t all be placed on one child. Ideally you’d have a mix of those who are in the early stages and those who are first language or fluent on every table. Sometimes you might want to bring together your newer arrivals to do some targeted teaching, but that should only be for a short period. I’d also be recommending making sure that children are regularly changing who they sit next to so that those children who are good at supporting their peers don’t become resentful at also being expected to help others.

OP, I would have a chat with the teacher to find out what the situation is and ask if they can ensure your DD is able to spend time sitting/working with a range of children in the class.

My daughter sat next to a boy to "encourage him to behave." This was the teachers actual reasoning. I was actually fuming. It's not my daughters responsibility to encourage unruly boys into behaving. They were 8 at the time, she's very academic, and she was distracted constantly throughout the day. I did email in to complain, and she was moved the same day, and the child moved to the table in front of the teacher so she could then keep her eye on him, like it should of been in the first place.

I’d be asking for her to be moved and when you do it make sure you tell the teacher that the other kids are speaking to each other in their native language. I would have thought that the non English speakers should be separated to encourage them to improve their language skills .

It's not that different to when they always put my child next to the naughty kids. It's different of course but it's not to your daughters advantage really, it's for someone else

Yes that's what I meant

No it doesn’t. Most migrant children to the UK in 2024 have no or limited English when they arrive (children from South Asia are the exception to this). Social fluency usually takes about 2 years and academic fluency around 5-7. EAL children have the same range of abilities as everyone else - some will be extremely fast to learn English, most will follow the above pattern and some take far longer because they have SEN (which often is masked because of the language barrier).

No way would I be happy with this!

Most likely your daughter is a good kid who will help them and set a great example. But her school experience is important too.

Why do they overtake? Are you talking about specific places?

This happens so often and it isn’t fair.

The maths scenario is quite common. The English scenario won’t be the case unless the children have been in Ireland for a while already.

It does vary a great deal.

I once had a case where one girl progressed so rapidly that she was top of the class for English. By contrast, another girl from the same country refused to learn English until I separated her from the first pupil. (They had been at a local primary for a year and had just moved up to high school.)

You are not being unreasonable to ask for a shuffle around. One of the points which struck me most from your OP was that there are several children who speak the same foreign language sitting next to her. My worry would be that they could exclude her by speaking in their native tongue together in front of her. She definitely isn’t there to facilitate their learning. Class definitely needs mixing up in terms of seating.

I was nearly six when I came to the uk. I didn’t know any English and hadn’t had any time in school. By the end of the school year I was fluent academically and socially. I moved into the next school year at the same level or above my classmates.

I would expect groups to be mixed more and only English is used at the classroom (whatever they do at breaks time). So yes, you are not unreasonable to raise that your daughter feels a bit isolated and uneasy at lessons and that affects her socialisation with peers. I would word it mildly (for the start) and ask how groups are done and how often they are changed and then I would express my concern. I wouldn’t raise a question about her helping other children if it’s not happening on the big scale because in a way working in a group and helping others in small amounts is good for her. So if you mention this the teacher would probably focus on this, whereas it’s about set up of the group where your daughter doesn’t feel comfortable.

Disclaimer: Parent of ESOL child.

For different reasons, I was concerned about a table my child was on. Turns out, the teacher planned to change them up frequently but I didn’t know that and I still asked her about it and she explained (and actually moved him quickly).

This happened to me CONSTANTLY at primary school! I hated it!

Well, you might be perfect but not all teachers are.

Surely you know that in any profession there a good and bad professionals.

That’s great that you made such fast progress and you’d definitely fall into the first group of children. Children who join in reception or year 1 often make quicker progress because they are learning in academic subjects at the same time as their peers rather than having to learn language to express what they already can do. Unfortunately there is a bit of a myth that this happens for all EAL children but that reality is far more mixed. All the research into EAL learners suggest that these timescales are the average amount of time most children take to learn.

I am suprised by Y5 that they are not sat by ability. Or perhaps the most able children are ESL? (Often the case, parents who are more interested in education). They may be fairly fluent by now and generally apply themselves more, which means that she may be learning as much from them as vice versa. I would raise it with the teacher as questions rather than 'can she move tables?'. I would say that your DD is concerned for these reasons and see if the teacher can reassure you.

It does vary, for reasons which have been covered by another poster.

An American study suggested that the cut-off for fluency (including an American accent) was 11.

She's on a long table with I think seven kids in total. To her left are two ESOL kids, then her, then to her right are another two ESOL kids. I think at the very end of the table are two native speakers, but there are two children in between them and her.

As far as I know, one of the ESOL kids has not actually started yet, he's starting next week. Two (the ones that speak the same language) joined part way through last school year, I think towards the end of the year. Not sure about the other one. I may have misunderstood some of the details.