Primary child sat only with non-English speaking children

[evilharpy]

I don't know if IABU so grateful for any opinions.

Daughter is in second to last year of primary and has just gone back to school (we are in Ireland, before anyone says it's too early) and they've been allocated to their table groups. The class is maybe 1/4 ESL children, 3/4 native speakers. She is on one long table with only children who have fairly recently moved here and don't speak much English sitting beside or really anywhere near her, certainly not close enough to talk to or pair up with for activities. Several of them are from the same country so speak each other's language.

Now I have no problem at all with ESL children being sat with or paired up with native speakers, how else are they supposed to learn, and I know the purpose of lessons is not to sit chatting to your friends, but she is worried she will be isolated and that she will end up spending more time helping them than doing her own work. She is very academic, if that's relevant, but is not at all prone to drama or moaning so the fact that she has told me she's worried about it has made me concerned.

WIBU to raise this with the teacher and ask if the tables could be mixed up a bit? Has anyone had a similar experience and it's worked out ok for the child?

I'd tell your daughter to give it a go for a couple of weeks and if she's finding it difficult then speak to the teacher.

I often pair EAL pupils together (secondary school) so they can practice English together, but not when they speak the same language as I find they just chat too much in their own language and often without relevance to the lesson.

And some of those reasons are probably for the benefit of the class 'as a whole', or for the benefit of the teacher, even if they are to the detriment of one child in isolation.
As parents we aren't here to advocate the whole class dynamic we want to make sure our own child isn't negatively affected.
Eg the practise of sitting quiet well behaved children next to poorly behaved, noisy ones. Im sure it improves the overall class because maybe those poorly behaved kids do slightly better as a result, but it absolutely negatively impacts the learning of those quiet well behaved kids. They are constantly used to moderate the behaviour of others and its unacceptable!

Your attitude is so depressing.

Exactly this.

It absolutely does happen and is a huge bugbear because in the primary years it is almost always girls who are negatively impacted while boys experience the positive influence. Yet another life scenario where girls needs are second to those of the boys.
I am always shocked that teachers (more often female than male!!) don't see the utterly ingrained sexism of it.
Girls doing better than boys? Better do sonething about that eh 🙄

Well aren’t you the perfect teacher. Just because this happens in your school doesn’t mean it’s the same for the OP’s class.

I think this a classic case of ignoring the needs of a compliant, well behaved student who will tow the line. I think the teacher's actions show poor judgment.

OP‘s daughter has expressed concerns, yet you think you know better how she should feel?

You are very wrong. This is a website for giving advice, not coming and arguing with other posters. Calm down woman and take care of your own feelings.

I‘m very wrong about what?

I think wait and see how it works in practice. If your daughter does feel excluded and like she can't communicate enough to do group work or play properly with these children after a couple of weeks then definately talk to the teacher. However I work with adults who have EAL and in totally free time, many of them will gravitate towards speakers of their own language and will speak together in their own language. It doesn't mean they can't or won't speak English to include others who don't speak their other languages.

I guess I’d be wondering whether the worries your daughter has are real problems she is facing or just that, worries which she needs help to work through. Seems like there is the potential for there to be many assumptions made about her role at the table or isolation, but colluding with her could actually make her feel more worried or solidify unhelpful assumptions about migrants in her mind (we don’t need anymore of that!). I guess I’m curious why she does not think she could make friends with the children who don’t have English as a first language? Why is she thinking it’s her role to teach them English (I really doubt the teacher expects that!). Why couldn’t she still talk to other kids at break? Why would she be isolated at a table with other kids? It sounds like this could be a great oppprtuity to break down stereotypes,

Have things changed since last year for her? Such as where she sits, is it a new class? Perhaps that’s what is going on and she just needs some support to manage the change and transition. I wouldn’t jump to the rescue or to “fix” unless there’s actually a problem to fix - right now I see a lot of assumptions on this thread about migrants and her role at the table and I think it’s unhelpful to project these assumptions onto children without any solid evidence of issue, it just perpetuates a stereotype that non native speakers are so different that you need your “own kind” with you otherwise you’ll be isolated.

this could be a really good learning experience and at the end of the term you will have a better understanding of what actually happens day to day. I think jumping on it on the first week just really feels like making lots of assumptions…and I’m not sure that helps children learn about difference and diversity.

Do you actually work in this school? Do you know the exact condition? Just because your class works as you describe it doesn’t mean that the school in question does. If the girl is experiencing problems with her own learning and friendships the OP is right to have a discussion with the school. There are ample opportunities for mixing groups in art, p.e, playtimes but not in core subjects. It seems sensible to have periods where esl children have adult support, and this is not left to their peers. And before you go on about budgets, I have worked in schools in very deprived areas where SEND and ESL students stretch the budget.

Trust the new teacher. She/he probably doesn't know the pupils and their language or other abilities yet.
And "academic' in (English equivalent of) Yr5?? Isn't it kore about enjoying school and enjoying learning.

I would have thought having the ESOL kids more spread out would be better for them to learn english. It’s no good having one native english speaker on the table. They are better off when they have to use English to engage with the group. As someone who was raised kind of bi-lingually my language skills deteriorated when I didn’t have to use them as often.

I would complain OP, it’s not fair on your DD.

That is really interesting about the grad % for migrants, can you link to some data on that please @Ozanj ?

Yeah I would kick up one hell of a stink if someone thought to use my DD as a learning aid. I expect her to be co-operative and helpful (including to other students) but not to the point where she’s a support human.

You'll likely get many people virtue signalling how your daughter should embrace it. But actually, your responsibility is to your daughters learning and schooling. She's not there to politely accept facilitating others English teaching. The other non native speakers need to learn and be nurtured but that's not your daughter's job. If she's not comfortable in the situation, her voice should matter too. It's not unreasonable to ask for a rethink on the current plan for your daughter's sake.

I agree with this. Don't let them take advantage of her good nature op. She is being excluded, she is sitting at her table not being able to speak to anyone around her, feeling worried and this is certainly going to impact her schooling. Go in and speak to the teacher.

Why after Halloween? I’m really baffled.

From reading posts on this thread I understand why I was made so unwelcome when I arrived in the UK - some of you should be ashamed of yourself

Sorry you've had that experience.

I do think though that the point of frustration was op felt her daughter was being placed unfairly in a position to facilitate a table of all non native speakers bar herself.

So effectively, she is the odd one out here, not the other children. She has to learn too.It's an education facility. Her mother is naturally going to be concerned with her own child's education. It has very much "be kind. Be nice " vibes. Lest you be accused of anything ...

Now, the children who speak another language need help and nurturing and deserve to feel welcome and cared for. All children should be responsible as well as the teachers for this.

Sitting one native speaker with all non native speakers, putting her daughter at a social end educational disadvantage is in no way related.

Two separate things.

@evilharpy
In primary my son was coming home constantly distressed because he was always placed next to the disruptive children and it was really upsetting him to the point of not wanting to go to school.

I spoke to the teacher about how upset he was about this and she admitted they placed them next to my son because he was good and thought the disruptive kids would be less disruptive by being sat next to someone well behaved. I mean that's fair enough but there comes a time when he needs to be sat next to someone with less disruptive behaviour and similar to himself.

She was absolutely fine about me speaking to her about it, I didn't demand he sit next to someone else but merely suggested how it would benefit him not to be always sat next to the disruptive ones.

The teacher then did a swap around which made my child happy and have no issues going into school.

Although I no longer teach I have taught for about 30 years with about 20 years in the state primary sector and if I had done this I would expect complaints. Of course children support and mentor one another but not all day long; they have a right to learn and develop communication skills too. I would approach the class teacher in a non-confrontational way and ascertain what the situation was and discuss how to resolve it. Don’t let it simmer.

Bless your son, it's a disadvantage being 'the good kid' sometimes!

See, this is where some of the "isms" get thrown about that makes everyone scatter and run for cover when they see that grenade coming. So one poster up thread stated "this is why I felt so unwelcome in the UK" (or words to that effect) but if we use your example, and to summarise some children with behavioural issues/ possibly neuro divergent conditions were seated near your son who was expected to be a role model to them, causing him disadvantage. It's like someone with say ADHD coming along and saying to you "see this is why people with neuro divergency have problems at school!!"

I don't know how the op raising a valid concern for her own childs education is suddenly equated to "see this is why people from outside the UK aren't welcome here. You should be ashamed"

This kind of 'shut down/knee jerk blame' doesn't help anyone